Can Pedro Sánchez unite the global left?
This week, we’ve got a little something for everyone: gambling! Kraftwerk! Blast from the recent US political past Tim Walz! It was a Good Week yet again for Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez, the darling of the global left, who threw a party for… the global left. And it was a Bad Week for the legendary German electronic band Kraftwerk, who apparently have been around since 1970(!) and therefore can withstand the occasional bad week. We also caught up with Greek investigative reporter Eurydice Bersi, who was part of a team that uncovered a slew of streamers on places like YouTube and Twitch who’ve been directing their followers to unlicensed gambling sites – and profiting off it.
Eurydice is a reporter with Reporters United, Investigate Europe’s partners in Greece.
Inspiration Station:
The European Cultural Foundation’s calendar of the smörgåsbord of events coming up in celebration of Europe Day 2026
The website WhoSampled.com
Other resources for this episode:
“The European rule on whether samples need to be cleared moves to a ‘maybe’ with latest Kraftwerk ruling” – Complete Music Update, 15 April 2026
“The Court of Justice clarifies the scope of the exception for ‘pastiche’ in relation to sampling” – Court of Justice of the European Union, 14 April 2026
“Greek utility completes 2.13 GW solar cluster at former coal mine” – PV Magazine, 7 April 2026
“Social media influencers steer millions of Europeans to unlicensed gambling websites” – Investigate Europe, 24 February 2026
Shady Bets, Investigate Europe’s series on online gambling
Producers
Morgan Childs and Wojciech Oleksiak
Mixing and mastering
Wojciech Oleksiak
Music
Jim Barne and Mariska Martina
-
KATY LEE
Welcome back to the Europeans. This is Katy Lee in Paris. That one is Dominic Kraemer in Amsterdam. Say hello.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Hello.
KATY LEE
And this is a podcast about a continent where we have an election basically every day of the week, but we don't talk about them every single week, because it would make our brains explode. Having said that, can we briefly talk about the Bulgarian elections before we dive into this week's episodes?
Did you follow all the drama over the weekend, Dominic?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
We can talk about this one. I did follow it.
But like, to be totally honest, Bulgaria's had eight elections in five years. It was a big one, right?
KATY LEE
It was a big one.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
A much more decisive result than all of the last elections.
KATY LEE
Yeah, they've had many, many unstable coalitions. So congrats for getting through this eighth election in five years, Bulgarians.
And maybe there'll be a little bit more stability over the next few years. Let's see. But what kind of stability?
It's kind of a bit of a twist in terms of the overall story of Europe. Like Hungary just got rid of Orbán, aka Putin's best friend in Europe. And everyone is like, yay, the tide is turning, the winds of change are here.
And then literally a week later, Bulgaria elects the Russia-friendly Ruman Radev with yeah, what looks to be a strong majority.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, I think it's important to note that from what I've read anyway, he's not the same as Viktor Orbán. He's more of a left-wing nationalist.
He created this new party, Progressive Bulgaria, just this year, actually. And they've won the first majority for a single party since 1997 in Bulgaria, which is astonishing. But from what I heard, he also ran really on a campaign to fight corruption and create stable government.
And there wasn't so much mention of Russia and Ukraine. So yeah, you're right that it does feel like a bit of a twist. But he is a very different beast politically to Orbán.
And he's not as pro-Russian as Orbán was. So we'll have to see what happens.
KATY LEE
Apparently on the campaign trail, he did talk about how interested he was in buying cheap Russian oil.
So that's not great. But yeah, from what I was reading, when he was president previously, he was actually quite non-controversial when he came to Brussels for summits and things. He would generally fall in line with everyone else.
So we'll have to see how Russia-friendly he is in practise. But yeah, very interesting times.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Definitely.
But we are all a bit election fatigued here at the podcast. So we are going to be talking about other things this week. What are you discussing on Good Week, Bad Week in a bit, Katy?
KATY LEE
I am going to be talking about Spain's Prime Minister, Pedro Sánchez. Is he the international saviour of left-wing politics that people on the left have been waiting for? He's certainly been doing some interesting things, I can say that much.
What about you? What are you going to be talking about?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Something completely different.
I'm going to be talking about a landmark legal case involving the German electronica band Kraftwerk.
KATY LEE
Kraftwerk! Love it.
Can't wait to hear about that.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
And then later in the show, Katy, you're going to be calling up investigative journalist Eurydice Bersi to discuss a very concerning phenomenon. European social media influencers who are benefiting from steering their followers towards blacklisted betting platforms.
More on that later in the show. But first, it's time for Good Week, Bad Week.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Let's start with Good Week.
Who's had a good week, Katy?
KATY LEE
I think Pedro Sánchez has had a good week, Spain's socialist Prime Minister. We have been wanting to talk about Sánchez for ages because he's really been having a bit of a moment on the international stage.
You probably haven't missed him standing up to Trump on various recent occasions when other European leaders have been significantly more timid. He called out Trump's Venezuela operation at the start of the year as a violation of international law. He has been deeply critical of Israel's war on Gaza.
And most lately, he has not held back in his criticism of the Trump administration over Iran. When the U.S. announced the current ceasefire a couple of weeks ago, for example, Sánchez said that he wouldn't applaud those who set the world on fire just because they show up with a bucket of water.
And those sharp words have been accompanied by actions. The Spanish government has defied threats from the U.S. to cut off trade and Spain has closed its airspace and military bases to U.S. planes being used in the Iran war. So yeah, bold action, bold words at a time when there have been plenty of jokes about the EU as a whole falling back into its old habit of expressing deep concern over situations and not doing that much else. So yeah, Sánchez has impressed people in his rather brave approach to geopolitics at the moment.
But people on the left internationally are also starting to sit up and take an interest in a couple of things that Sánchez has been doing domestically. One big thing that makes him really stand out from other European leaders is how he talks about migration. He has been very vocal in talking about how vital migrants are to the Spanish economy, which by the way, is the fastest growing economy in the EU right now.
It is also an economy that is relatively well protected from all of the current chaos in the energy market as a result of the war, because Spain has invested so aggressively in renewable energy in recent years.
So yeah, Sánchez has kind of become a international poster boy for governing in a left-wing way that seems, at least from the outside, to be both principled and successful. And I would argue that last weekend, he really cemented that international left-wing poster boy status because he played host to a gathering that has been described as a kind of global anti-Trump summit.
It was called the Global Progressive Mobilisation, which I think is quite a forgettable name for an event, but let's go with it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
But I mean, like CPAC also. What does that even stand for?
KATY LEE
The Conservative Political Action Conference. Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. We could call it the GPM, I guess.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Sounds like something per minute.
KATY LEE
Yeah, beats per minute.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
We can definitely brainstorm something better. Not that it's our job, but let's work on this, Katy.
KATY LEE
Let's work on it. But yes, some quite big hitter left-leaning leaders flew in from around the world.
President Lula from Brazil, Mexico's President Claudia Sheinbaum, who's become a bit of a star lately, Colombia's President Gustavo Petro, South Africa's President Cyril Ramaphosa. So lots of people from outside of Europe, but were there actually any other left-wing progressive Europeans? There were slightly lower profile figures from Europe, I would say, which is maybe a reflection of there not actually being that many left-leaning governments to invite people from right now here in Europe.
But the UK's Foreign Secretary David Lammy was there. There was Germany's Vice-Chancellor Lars Klingbeil. Elly Schlein, who is Italy's left-wing opposition leader.
Interestingly, Antonio Costa, who is President of the European Council, very much a EU big dog, he was supposed to be there in Barcelona, but he cancelled at the last minute for quote-unquote personal reasons. Maybe he has a spring cold, who knows? Or maybe someone on his team realised that even though Costa used to be a socialist Prime Minister himself in Portugal, it maybe isn't the appropriate look for him to be present at this overtly left-wing event, given that his job is now to represent the whole of the EU.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
And what about the starry progressive Americans? Did any of them show up? Was Bernie there or AOC?
KATY LEE
AOC was not there, sadly. There were a few Americans present. Tim Walz, you might remember him as Kamala Harris's running mate. Democratic Senator Chris Murphy was there. But I guess, yeah, when you talk about stars of the moment of progressive politics, you are probably referring to New York's Mayor Zohran Mamdani.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yes, of course.
I mean, I didn't want to give him too much extra airtime considering we talked about him for a whole interview two weeks ago. But yeah.
Was he there?
KATY LEE
He couldn't make it to Barcelona, but he did send a video message, along with, indeed, Bernie Sanders.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
And what actually happened at this event?
Like, was it just lots of speeches?
KATY LEE
Lots of stirring speeches, yeah. So just to paint a picture of the atmosphere, it's at this massive conference centre in Barcelona.
And by the way, Barcelona was very much a deliberate choice of location because the left are firmly in power there locally, unlike in the Spanish capital, Madrid. So, symbolic choice. So we're there in this big conference centre, and it's all of these leaders making rousing speeches, sticking up for progressive values in the world, and declaring the far-right's political moment to be over.
[CLIP: “We will beat them if we force them on the most uncomfortable ground for them, which is social justice and peace, the quality of life of our people.”]
KATY LEE
The newspaper El País described the mood as an unexpected sense of progressive optimism. Because if you think about it, the global headwinds are actually quite good. Trump's support at home is slipping because the war is such a disaster.
Orbán is gone. Meloni has had some setbacks in Italy. You've got figures like Claudia Scheinbaum in Mexico and Zohran Mamdani becoming really popular figures.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Jordan Bardella is about to win a presidency in France.
KATY LEE
Hey, don't burst my bubble. Apparently, there was something in the air in Barcelona, a bit of that weird hope feeling that you mentioned last week.
Sánchez told the crowd, they have tried to make us ashamed of our ideas, but this is over. In Barcelona, this April the 18th, shame changes sides.
[CLIP IN SPANISH]
KATY LEE
I mentioned that the press built this as a kind of unofficial anti-Trump summit.
It was interesting, though, how few leaders actually referred to Donald Trump by name. Probably the one who got closest was Brazil's president Lula. He made a reference to going to bed each night waiting for a tweet from a president threatening the world.
But yeah, none of these leaders named Trump. After all, all of them are involved in a delicate diplomatic dance with the all-powerful US government. So it was weird.
Trump was kind of like Voldemort at this event. No one would say his name, but he was very much the focus of the whole thing.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
He who must not be named.
Exactly. Anyway, lots of good speeches. In the English-speaking media, this event got described as a left-wing CPAC, which you've already mentioned, Dominic.
CPAC being the annual conservative jamboree in the US, which has lately become a more international event as well, not just focused on the US, but building bridges for the right across international borders. And that's what I think makes this event interesting. This was really billed as an international attempt to galvanise the left.
And listeners, I don't know if you heard it, but a couple of weeks back, we did this great interview with Dave Keating about why it's so hard for a progressive superstar upstart politician like Zohran Mamdani, the New York mayor, to emerge in Europe. And Dave was talking about how the far right and the right more broadly has been really effective in organising internationally. Figures like Marine Le Pen and Meloni, they boost each other.
And Dave was saying that we have yet to see that happen on the left. This felt kind of like the first organised attempt to make that happen in a big way on the left, to get people to start boosting each other internationally in the same way as the right has been doing online and offline for ages now.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
And it's interesting that this was all organised by Pedro Sánchez.
I mean, he's obviously become very popular internationally in recent months, but is the same true at home in Spain?
KATY LEE
Yes and no. If you talk to Spaniards about how Sánchez is seen at home at the moment, obviously, you'll get different opinions depending on who you speak to.
But I do think there is a fair amount of pride in how Sánchez has stood up to Trump. And as I mentioned, the Spanish economy is doing really very well at the moment, at least relative to other European countries. We are light years away from where we were coming out of the financial crisis and those incredibly difficult years that Spain suffered.
Having said that, it isn't all plain sailing. Just last week, Sánchez's wife, Begoña Gómez, she was charged with corruption over allegations that she used his position and her position for private gain. She denies the charges and the couple are presenting this whole thing as basically a dirty tricks campaign by the right-wing opposition that they have managed to get investigated by conservative judges who are sympathetic to the right.
Regardless of whether there is any truth to that, it is not a great look for Sánchez, for his wife to be under investigation. And it is not the only corruption case embroidering his inner circle. There are several.
Sánchez is not personally accused in any of these cases, but it really doesn't help, especially as he came to power himself, promising to get rid of corruption. And there have been various other scandals and crises for him to manage, including that crazy nationwide blackout that there was last year and the terrible floods in Valencia. He has been governing without a budget since 2023, which critics argue is highly irresponsible.
And all of these things have been happening in a context of increasing polarisation, you know, same as everywhere else. So, as you can imagine, the news coverage and the social media coverage that you get about these events, it really depends on your political allegiance. People on the far right who hate Sánchez, they really, really hate Sánchez.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
How's he doing in the polls though, like across the country as a whole?
KATY LEE
If there was an election tomorrow, opinion polls put Sánchez's Socialist Party basically neck and neck with their main rivals, which is the Conservative People's Party.
It depends what poll you look at. There was one poll this week which gave the Socialists a comfortable lead, but that appears to be an outlier. Generally, at the time of recording, the People's Party actually looks to be slightly ahead on 32%-ish of the vote, and the Socialists are just behind on 28%-ish. And then the far-right Vox Party is behind those two on maybe 18% of the vote.
Having said that, the Socialists have been creeping up behind the People's Party since the US and Israel launched their joint operation against Iran. And that suggests that more people are looking at their Prime Minister's behaviour on the world stage and thinking, you know what, you're not so bad. Spain is due to hold national elections sometime before July next year.
A lot could change before then. But yeah, it might surprise people listening to this internationally to know that Sánchez doesn't exactly have a roaring lead in the opinion polls at home right now.
I think he's such an interesting figure. I was looking through the archives. I actually gave Sánchez bad week back in 2023 because at the time, his government was hanging by a thread. And now, three years later, he's being hailed as the great hope of the international left.
But yeah, at home, the opinion polls still put his party behind the opposition.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
It's so often the case that a political leader is being celebrated abroad, but not so much at home.
KATY LEE
Yeah.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
It's an interesting phenomenon. I mean, even if you look at like Emmanuel Macron, I wouldn't say he's celebrated, but I think he is relatively well-respected on the world stage as somebody...
DOMINIC KRAEMER
For sure.
KATY LEE
For sure, who tries to get people together and try and find solutions to diplomatic problems. Whereas, you know, at home, of course, he's absolutely reviled and seen as a real lame duck these days. Even Keir Starmer, I think, is more popular internationally than at home.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, and often that's just because people don't know the details of what's actually happening domestically, right?
KATY LEE
Yeah. We just see news clips of people doing diplomatic things where maybe it's less easy to be reviled by your people.
Anyway, in Spain, who knows what will be by next year. There aren't that many European politicians who have had such a roller coaster of a career as Pedro Sánchez has. I will probably give him good week and bad week, at least twice each before the next elections.
But for now, in spite of all the problems at home, this week at least, he can look at all of his fans abroad and say, at least these guys like me. And if we zoom out and look at the international picture, bringing the left together internationally, it's not easy building the kind of links for progressives that the far right has already spent years doing. That is not something that can be done overnight.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
No, but yeah, I'm quite encouraged to see that there's actually a start. For ages, I've been wondering why this hasn't been happening. And it is.
KATY LEE
It's happening. Who's had a bad week?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Well, for this week's bad week, I want to talk about a momentous European legal ruling that has implications that could change the way pop songs are written in Europe.
There are winners, there are losers, but this week's legal loser seems to be the iconic German electronic band, pioneers of electronic music in the 1970s, Kraftwerk.
KATY LEE
Are Kraftwerk from the 1970s? I thought they were like later than that.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
No, they were formed in 1970 in Dusseldorf. Are you a big Kraftwerk fan, Katy? Well, apparently not if you didn't know they're from the 70s.
KATY LEE
Not massive, but they're just kind of part of the soundtrack to Europe, right? Everybody knows the kind of beats that are associated with Kraftwerk.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Do they? I don't know, actually, if everyone does know, but if you don't know, go and listen to Autobahn. It's a crazy, wild track. Anyway, they are getting bad week after the European Court of Justice made a ruling that looks like it is going to finally settle a decades-long copyright dispute Kraftwerk has been embroiled in and not in Kraftwerk's favour.
This dispute's been going on since 2002. And it's appeared in regional courts, national courts, as well as the European Court of Justice multiple times. Now, I'll get into why it's been a bad week for them in a minute, but I think I should start just by playing you clips from the two songs at the heart of this copyright dispute.
So the dispute centres around a song by Kraftwerk released in 1977 called Metall auf Metall. And I will play a very short clip of the few seconds that Kraftwerk believe have been plagiarised.
[MUSIC CLIP]
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Now, ironically, for copyright reasons, we can only play two seconds.
Kraftwerk have made it very clear that they're not afraid of heading into decades-long legal disputes, and I don't want to spend our Patreon money defending ourselves in court against Kraftwerk for two decades to come.
KATY LEE
The Europeans versus Kraftwerk. That is a case I would follow in the courts.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Oh, God, please. Yeah, I mean, I feel scared about even mentioning it. I don't want to say it into existence.
Anyway, keep those two seconds of percussive metallic beat in your mind, and now listen to a few seconds from the song Nur Mir performed by the German rapper Sabrina Settler, produced and co-written by a German musician called Moses Pelham, the man who Kraftwerk has taken to court. This one was written in 1997.
[MUSIC CLIP]
DOMINIC KRAEMER
What do you think, Katy?
Do you hear the plagiarism? I
KATY LEE
hear on both tracks what sounds like people working on a building site. It's got that kind of metal against metal sound.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Exactly. But it's the beat specifically that's been copied here.
KATY LEE
So that second song is accused of plagiarising the first song, the song by Kraftwerk.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, and look, even if it's not entirely clear on first listening from these two incredibly short clips, Moses Pelham did sample Kraftwerk for Nur Mir. He took this two-second rhythmic sequence and he put it into Sabrina Settler's song.
KATY LEE
So this whole decades-long legal battle is about the sampling of two seconds of music.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yes, but those two seconds are continuously looped in Nur Mir. So, you know, it's made up the whole song.
KATY LEE
But it's not particularly unusual, is it?
Like sampling happens all the time in music.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, it does. But usually, in the EU anyway, permission should be sought from the rights owners. And if permission is granted, it will usually be licenced with some money changing hands in the form of a one-time payment, a royalty split, or even with both. And actually, in 2019, the European Court of Justice already made a ruling around sampling connected to this specific case. The court back then clarified some legal rules around the practise of sampling bits of other artists' music.
The Court of Justice said that permission must be obtained to sample another musician's song. But there are some exceptions whereby permission doesn't have to be given, including when the new song samples the original song in a form unrecognisable to the ear. Then permission might not be needed.
I think we can agree that that's not relevant in this case. It is, to some extent, recognisable.
KATY LEE
Yeah, I think so.
You can hear that hammery sound over and over again.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
But also, according to an EU copyright directive, also from 2019, there is an exception for caricature, parody, and pastiche. And it's that last word, pastiche, where Kraftwerk seems to have tripped up in their attempts to prove that Moses Pelham illegally used a clip of their music without permission.
KATY LEE
Oh, interesting.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Do you think you could define the word pastiche, Katy?
KATY LEE
I actually don't, because you said parody or pastiche, right?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Or caricature, yeah.
KATY LEE
I don't know if I can define those things separately from each other. So, no.
What is the official definition of pastiche? How is that different from parody?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Well, that is the big question, and that is what happened in the ruling last week. You're not the only one who's a bit fuzzy on the definition of pastiche. It's one of those fancy words that turns out it's quite difficult to define, and we need to get the European Court of Justice to help us define it.
I actually remember learning about what pastiche was as a child, which is perhaps a bit weird in itself, but I vividly remember it. But it's because I went to a specialist music school, and we did a whole project on pastiche, using Stravinsky's Pulcinella as an example. It's this ballet from 1919, where Stravinsky took 18th century music by Pergolese and basically gave it a modern twist, like reharmonizing it, reorchestrating it, and generally making it his own.
KATY LEE
We had very different experiences of primary education.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
We did. Anyway, my little trip down memory lane isn't totally random. It's just to say that pastiche isn't something that's new.
It's not like a trendy concept that the European Union has dreamed up. It's been part of music forever and of the arts forever. People have always borrowed each other's work and reimagined it and paid tribute to it.
But yeah, the reason why we are here back at the European Court of Justice last week is because a German court asked the European Court of Justice to help them define what counts as a pastiche. And so now I can give you the official European definition.
KATY LEE
Oh, hit me.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
The judges said that the pastiche copyright exception covers, quote, creations which evoke one or more existing works while being noticeably different from them, and which use, including by means of sampling, some of those works' characteristic elements protected by copyright in order to engage with those works in an artistic or creative dialogue that is recognisable as such. Don't you love it when judges try to talk about art?
KATY LEE
I feel like they've made things worse.
Like, I feel like now anyone can sample anything and be like, I'm doing pastiche, okay?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
I'm in artistic dialogue.
KATY LEE
I'm in artistic dialogue.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Anyway, they go on to say that dialogue can take different forms, in particular the form of an overt, stylistic imitation of those works, of a tribute to them, or of humorous or critical engagement with them.
KATY LEE
Okay, so joking aside, it sounds like you can't just copy something and say, this is pastiche. You'd have to be in artistic dialogue, quote unquote, with the original material.
Still sounds a bit vague, but maybe it's clearer than it was. And so now that we have this definition of pastiche, is, what was his name, the producer guy, Moses something?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Moses Pelham.
KATY LEE
Moses Pelham. Is he now free of the copyright claim from Kraftwerk?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Well, it's looking like that will be the case. Yes, hence why Kraftwerk are getting bad week. But actually, if I'm totally honest, this legal battle isn't quite over yet. The case now goes back to the German Federal Court with this definition of pastiche in hand.
But the European Court of Justice ruling refers to the fact that the lower court had already found that Nur Mir, quote, artistically engages with the rhythmic sequence. So yeah, I read in Die Zeit that German copyright expert Till Kreutzer sees very good chances that Pelham will now win this case. He says that the European Court of Justice have opened the door to allow sampling as pastiche.
But this expert does stress that not everything that is a remix will be able to fit under this category.
KATY LEE
The fact that this legal battle still isn't officially over yet, it's pretty mind-boggling. You said it began in, when was it, 2002?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, it is mad, isn't it?
KATY LEE
Wild. But if we zoom out and look at the implications for the music industry more broadly, what kind of repercussions does this ruling have for people making music across the European Union?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, well, it's important you say that across the European Union because it's important to know that this definition of pastiche now applies to the whole of the European Union, not just Germany. And yeah, this definition from the European Court of Justice has created a bit more clarity, but not total clarity around sampling.
I read quite a nice conclusion from the UK's music industry news site, Complete Music Update. The writer Chris Cook wrote in response to this ruling, “Simple, now we know, or at least we know for certain that when we ask the question, do you need permission if you sample a tiny snippet of another track? The answer in Europe is now, maybe.”
KATY LEE
This is a very European answer.
Whereas I guess before it was, yes.
KATY LEE
Yeah, that's what I mean. They've made it worse.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Maybe they have. Interestingly, this pastiche definition does not only have implications for music. Pelham's law firm actually put out a statement claiming that the ruling also has implications for people who create memes, for example. Another art form.
KATY LEE
Oh, absolutely an art form.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
But back to music to round this off.
Honestly, I think there will always be complicated musical copyright cases in the courts. However many copyright directives and legal rulings around definitions there are, it's just often so subjective and so difficult to create a set of guidelines that leaves open space for every musical possibility. And yeah, I do think it's important that artists who create something are correctly credited and compensated for that work.
And I find this Kraftwerk case particularly interesting and thought-provoking because it's a big, big name band suing a much smaller artist for copyright infringement. I was trying to imagine if I'd feel differently if it was the other way around. Like if Moses Pelham had been sampled without permission or credit by Kraftwerk, would I then be so accepting of this pastiche example?
I don't know.
KATY LEE
It's a bit like that case we talked about a while back of Patagonia, the outdoorwear brand suing Pattie Gonia, the drag queen. It's just like the power imbalance feels off somehow.
It feels a bit icky.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Don't get me started. That was Bad Week.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER
As I mentioned in my Bad Week, I believe people should get the credit and payment for the artistic work they do. And if you follow that train of thought, I also believe that the hard work, some of which is artistic, I guess, of making this podcast should also be paid fairly and credited correctly, which is why... Is this a bit of a weird segue?
Which is why we here at The Europeans have a request. Could you consider donating a small monthly amount on patreon.com/europeanspodcast to help keep this independent podcast up and running?
KATY LEE
And to help us cover our legal bills when Kraftwerk sue us for using two seconds of that song.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
It's not going to happen. It's not happening. Thank you to the latest supporters to join us over the past week. They are Emma, Gia, Madeline, Jennifer, The 9th Gecko, Mikolaj, Brent, Connor, Filippo, Patrick, Rika, Lars, Nora, Ruben and Pelin.
KATY LEE
Thank you so much, guys.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE
Let’s talk about gambling.
Are you a gambling man, Dominic?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
No, I'm definitely not. Although, god, I do sometimes go on that website polymarket.com.
KATY LEE
Which is not a gambling website. We don't want to get sued by them as well as by Kraftwerk. Sorry.
What do they call themselves?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
A prediction market.
KATY LEE
A prediction market.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, which is like, feels to me like it's gambling adjacent, at least. Adjacent, let's say that. In the same family.
Anyway, I sometimes go and look on that when there's like a political election coming up, which I know I shouldn't. It's a stupid metric for working out whether something is going to go one way or the other. But I sometimes think, oh, I could really get into this if this was legal in my country.
KATY LEE
Oh, that sounds dangerous. Stay away from polymarket. It's not good for you.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
It's really not. Are you into gambling?
KATY LEE
I'm really not.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Imagine if you were and I just had never asked you.
KATY LEE
Surprise! Probably the biggest gamble I've ever taken in my life was quitting my job to make this podcast with you. And, you know, that seems to be going okay.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, it's paid off, has it?
KATY LEE
Kind of going okay, yeah. But I think I will stop there. Thank you very much. That is enough gambling for me. But I am kind of interested in gambling as an industry. Like I'm just so conscious of it as an industry that has grown, especially since COVID.
Like here in France, for example, you can see more and more bus stop ads for, you know, websites that you can use for sports betting and that kind of thing.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
I know here in the Netherlands, they've actually banned advertising for gambling during sports events, which I think is not such a bad thing. And yeah, as I said, PolyMarket is not available here in the Netherlands yet.
And I think it's been banned in a bunch of European countries. But that said, I think it's fair to say that, like, we live in a time when it's easier as Europeans to bet money on things than it has ever been.
And the regulators have a bit of catching up to do.
KATY LEE
In that context, an interesting investigation caught our eye lately by the journalists at Investigate Europe. They looked at the role of influencers, like social media influencers, in pushing people towards gambling websites.
And not just gambling websites in general, but ones that are actually operating illegally. It's quite a troubling investigation about something that we don't talk about very often on this podcast. So we thought we'd better get one of the journalists behind this reporting on the line.
Eurydice Bersi is a Greek investigative journalist. She is based in Athens. This interview was produced in collaboration with radio stations across Europe as part of Euranet Plus.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE
Eurydice, thank you so much for joining us.
EURYDICE BERSI
Thank you very much for inviting me. When I was growing up, gambling had to be done in a depressing betting shop populated almost exclusively by older men.
These days, it's a very different state of affairs. If a young European is looking to gamble, how would they typically go about this?
EURYDICE BERSI
They'd just reach their phone and then at their fingertips, there'd be a million casino applications, sports betting, and everything that you need is just right there in your phone.
You can do it at your own discretion, at your own time, without anybody needing to notice. You don't even need to leave your home. You don't need anybody to know.
It's a lot easier, especially for the younger generations, but in general, it's in our bedrooms now.
KATY LEE
And are these websites that are being used for gambling today, are they always legal?
EURYDICE BERSI
By far not.
So most websites used for gambling are illegal in many countries. So first of all, there's countries that don't allow gambling at all, either land-based or online, like all the Muslim countries, like Japan, with an exception in Japan of Pachinko, which is their own sort of gambling game.
And then there's countries that do allow some gambling, like sports betting.
France, for example. In France, you can legally place your bets online, but you cannot just play slots on your phone. That's illegal.
And there are countries where you can also go to an online casino, only those that are licenced. But the reality is that you can also visit all sorts of unlicensed sites and play there.
KATY LEE
And is an unlicensed site also necessarily illegal?
EURYDICE BERSI
Yes, it's the same thing. So if the site does not hold a licence in your country, in the country where you're based, then it's not legal.
And then you do not have all the protections of the law. Or if you win money, you win, and then you cannot get your money.
KATY LEE
Oh, because it's not legal in your country?
EURYDICE BERSI
It's not legal, so you're at their mercy. They may give you, and if they don't, you cannot bring them to court because it was illegal to begin with. So there's lots of court cases of players who have been scammed practically.
And there's other court cases of players who thought that they should have been protected because gambling is a fun activity that can go very, very seriously wrong. So you can lose everything you have very, very quickly.
There's some supposed safeguards in the legal sector against this. We could talk about how effective they are. I don't think they are very effective, but they exist. There's none in the legal market.
So you get players who lose everything and they try to recover the money by going to court. And even if they win, you can never find these people because they're very quick at moving their assets around the world and at bankrupting the former companies and disappearing. And you're just on your own, practically.
KATY LEE
And are there any standardised rules that apply to how the gambling sector operates across the EU? Or is this really like a nation by nation, every country has their own different rules kind of situation?
EURYDICE BERSI
It's a country by country situation. It's not centrally regulated.
KATY LEE
Now, you've recently published an investigation that found that online influencers are playing a big role in sending people to unlicensed illegal gambling websites in many European countries. What kind of influencers are we talking about? Can you tell us about some of these young internet famous people who are pushing their followers towards these dodgy websites?
EURYDICE BERSI
First of all, it's not just young. That's the point is to find the audience where this audience is. So if the audience is an older woman who is interested in cooking, then you hire an older woman cooking at home and streaming herself as she cooks. And then she just mentions, by the way, that, oh, there's this gambling website.
There’s a lot of money, a lot of money flowing from gambling to influencers in various formats. There's some who are really professional, so they stream themselves playing and there's a vibrant community of people talking to them. You know, they're all having fun together. And of course, they don't know that when they lose their money at the website that the influencer directs them to, then he or she gets a cut, a big cut.
KATY LEE
The influencer.
EURYDICE BERSI
Yes, yes. So he's not their friend.
KATY LEE
As you say, you know, it's not necessarily uniquely trying to target young people, but nonetheless, you know, a lot of people who are hanging out on Instagram following the kinds of people that you're talking about. I think there was a rapper in one country who had a big following and was pushing these kinds of websites. Their followings do in some cases tend to be pretty young. Are there any signs that minors are getting sucked into these websites and potentially losing money on them?
EURYDICE BERSI
Yes, some of those websites are even advertising the fact that there's no ID required. In every country, there's a special keyword where if you search for gambling sites with it, then it directs you to sites that you don't need an ID to prove your age or anything else.
KATY LEE
Now, I was interested to read in your investigation that there is a Maltese connection for a lot of these streamers.
What's that about? How and when did Malta become such a hub for the gambling industry?
EURYDICE BERSI
It's Malta and Cyprus. And then the third European sort of connection is Curaçao, which is in the Caribbean, but it's not an independent country. It's connected to the Netherlands.
So Malta is the European capital of the gambling industry. It protects the industry in extreme ways. It's a major industry, Malta, major industry. So the local policy makers there are pulling all the stops to make them feel comfortable.
KATY LEE
Wow. Sounds a bit like Ireland and the tech industry in some ways. Like, how can we bend over backwards further to help this industry feel at home here? It's a real Wild West situation. It's really troubling hearing you talk about all of this. Presumably you flagged up your findings, for example, that streamers are promoting illegal websites, in many cases, to the platforms where these big streamers have been promoting these websites, notably Twitch and YouTube.
What did Twitch and YouTube have to say about your findings?
EURYDICE BERSI
Well, they took down some of the sites. They do put up some warnings sometimes, but then what's happening is that the illegal content just resurfaces in different forms.
It's a cat and mouse game. I mean, it's the policy makers that need to act here. The platforms also, but it's basically the policy makers who need to say this must stop and this isn't happening, because only illegal gambling is estimated to be making like 80 billion euros per year.
It's a huge thing. So even if a small part of this money ends up oiling the right sort of parts of the machine, then suddenly nothing happens.
There's a lot of money flowing from the gambling sector to all sorts of causes, and some of it is above the radar. So you see all those donations and all those charity events and all those sponsorship deals. So it's like the gambling sector is trying to make itself too big to fail and too big to regulate. That's the sort of the essence of it.
And this is all happening because the public doesn't realise how much of a crime this is, how much of a crime we're talking about, because all the dramas that are caused by gambling are hidden.
It's a stigma. People don't want to come out and say, you know, I've been ruined. I'm trying to quit, but I can’t. I'm lying to my family. Or this suicide was caused by gambling. This divorce was caused by gambling.
It's just, it's a huge issue that is not addressed in the way that it should.
KATY LEE
You say that the right kind of policymaking could help crack down on this kind of thing. But you also said, you know, it's a kind of cat and mouse game where YouTube might take down some adverts for sites that really shouldn't be promoted, but then some other ones will pop up somewhere else.
What kind of policymaking do you think could actually, in concrete terms, help address all of these problems linked to the rise of online gambling?
EURYDICE BERSI
Police work, first of all. I mean, giving the right sign to the investigative authorities, to the police, to crack down on those people.
So I'll give you an example. The French authorities very recently just had some illegal gambling providers arrested. Illegal gambling providers addressing the French audience.
They based themselves in Cyprus, thinking that they were safe. The authorities did their job. They just arrested them.
If these sort of things happen, then the people doing this line of work will get the message.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE
I was chatting to our producer Wojciech after this interview, and he was telling me about his high school girlfriend, whose dad was a gambling addict. And it absolutely ruined the family. It was such a sad story. So, yeah, I think it's worth dwelling for a second on what Eurydice said about how we don't talk about gambling because of the shame associated with the damage that it does.
And of course, you know, gambling can be just a bit of fun.
But like everything else that's addictive, when it wreaks damage, it really wreaks damage.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I now feel bad for making an inappropriate joke about maybe you might have a secret gambling life behind you.
For all you know, you could. And if you do, I hope you would feel that you could talk about it. I wouldn't judge you.
KATY LEE
Good to know.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
You can find Investigate Europe's reporting on this troubling nexus between social media influencers and illegal gambling websites at the link in the show notes. It's actually part of a wider series about how the gambling industry operates called Shady Bets.
And there are some really interesting pieces in there looking at how dependent European football has become on cash from the gambling sector. And as Eurydice mentioned, how Malta is protecting gambling companies because it likes having them based there. All very interesting reading.
Check it out at investigate-europe.eu.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Time to head into the Inspiration Station, the moment in the show where we step away from the politics of it all and share some European culture recommendations. Katy, what would you like to bring into the station this week?
KATY LEE
Bring into the station? Wrapped in a nice little package. Yeah, I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that Europe Day is fast approaching. Dominic, May the 9th.
You got anything planned?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Big parties.
KATY LEE
It is still, alas, not a public holiday, Europe Day, nearly a decade after we started this podcast, despite a campaign to make it a public holiday.
But it is a day when lots of interesting events are being held all around Europe. Talks, film screenings, all kinds of things. And it is a moment when you can maybe, you know, take a second to reflect on how you feel about being European or just eat a cake from a different country. You do you.
Anyway, people are putting on all kinds of stuff, but it is kind of difficult to know what's going on, which is why it is so helpful that our friends at the European Cultural Foundation have started putting together an online agenda of all the things that are happening everywhere all across Europe for Europe Day. Not all of them are on May the 9th itself.
Some of them are in the run-up to May the 9th. So if you're curious about whether there's something planned in your neck of the woods, it is worth checking this website. It is europeday.eu. And new events are still being added over the next couple of weeks before May the 9th. So keep checking.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
What kind of things caught your eye this year?
KATY LEE
Loads of different things.
Live music in Brussels. A whole day of play for kids in Budapest. There's what looks like a whole fun day's worth of events in Bratislava and in Helsinki and in Prague and in Stockholm.
A photo exhibition of pictures from across Europe in Zolochiv in Ukraine. And my personal favourite, if you live in Spain, there is a quite fun short-form writing competition for the best 250-word piece of writing inspired by both Europe as a whole and the specific region of Asón-Agüera-Trasmiera.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Well, there's definitely gonna be something for me to do.
I'm gonna have a look.
KATY LEE
There's loads of stuff in Amsterdam, actually. So yeah, you'll be spoilt for choice.
What have you been enjoying this week, Dominic?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Well, in preparation for my Bad Week segment about the controversial Kraftwerk sample, I became reacquainted with an amazing website that I used to visit very often, but I'd actually forgotten about. The website is whosampled.com.
Do you know this website?
KATY LEE
Oh, no.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Oh, well, I'm happy to introduce it to you. It claims to be the world's most comprehensive, detailed and accurate database of samples, cover songs and remixes, covering the entire history of music spanning over 1,000 years.
KATY LEE
Wow, sampling from 1,000 years ago.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
It's been happening forever, as I said. It's an incredible user-generated resource where you can like type in any song you can think of, and you'll find out what other song is sampled in that song and also where that song might have been sampled by other artists. And whenever I spend a bit of time on this page, I'm just amazed by how much sampling there is that's going on in pop music, presumably mainly with proper licences granted, unlike in the Kraftwerk case I discussed earlier.
Anyway, the site was founded in London in 2008. And I have to say, I'm a bit sad to read that it was bought by Spotify at the end of last year. So I feel a bit conflicted recommending it. That Swedish-based streaming platform which I publicly announced I was leaving at the start of this year. But yeah, for now, the website is actually still integrated with YouTube. Instead of Spotify, which gives it a nice kind of late-naughties feel to it.
Anyway, I love that you can just find out really unexpected samples. Check out the page about Kraftwerk's Metall auf Metall, for example.
KATY LEE
Oh, yeah, juicy.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
I love discovering these little musical Easter eggs. So head to whosampled.com. And also remember to move over to Qobuz if you want a more ethical place to listen to your music.
KATY LEE
Qobuz, who do not sponsor this show, by the way. We just really like them.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
I don't think they need to because we keep talking about them.
KATY LEE
For free!
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER
For my happy ending this week, I'm taking you to northern Greece. Thanks to listener Tom who flagged this story up.
Earlier this month, it was announced that construction is completed on building an enormous solar project on the site of a former coal mine.
KATY LEE
There's a nice kind of poetic-ness to that.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, exactly.
According to the state-owned utility company behind the construction, the solar cluster is capable of generating, wait for it, 6% of Greece's annual electricity consumption.
KATY LEE
From one site. Wow, that is impressive.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Now, former coal mines can leave a nasty scar on the landscape, but turning these spaces into solar clusters gives the abandoned mines new purpose, generating energy in a much cleaner, more sustainable way than coal ever could. There was actually a study that was released by Global Energy Monitor that came out last year, and that suggested that coal mines that have already been abandoned or will close by the end of the decade, they hold enough potential solar capacity to power the entire annual electricity needs of a country the size of Germany. So, yeah, the news from Greece is a great big green step in that direction.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE
We are taking a break next week, mostly to listen to Kraftwerk, but we will most certainly be back the week after that. And also, if you miss us in the meantime, our producer, Wojciech, won't let us stop posting on social media at the moment because we're on a bit of a roll there. So while we're away, you can find us on Instagram, at Europeans Podcast, and also on Mastodon.
And if you prefer your writing to be less bite-sized, we have a brilliant newsletter you can get straight into your inbox on Fridays. It is called Good Week Bad Week, if you're not subscribed yet, where have you been? Click on that little link right there on your screen.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
And don't forget in a few weeks time, we're having our inaugural book club episode in partnership with the European Review of Books. So go get your copy of Perfection by Vincenzo Latronico and send us an email or an Instagram DM with all your thoughts about it, preferably sometime next week.
KATY LEE
This week's show was produced by Morgan Childs and Wojciech Oleksiak using a proudly European piece of audio software, Hindenburg Pro.
Have a great two weeks.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Tschüss!
KATY LEE
Hasta luego!
Thanks for listening! If you enjoy our podcast, we'd love it if you'd consider chipping in a few bucks a month (many currencies are available).
You can also help new listeners find the show by leaving us a review or giving us five stars on Spotify.
This podcast was brought to you in cooperation with Euranet Plus, the leading radio network for EU news.
The Europeans is proudly produced using Europe’s own Hindenburg.
Thumbnail photo credit: Finnish Government on Flickr. Licensed under cc-by-2.0.