What do the Epstein files reveal about Europe’s elite?

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12 Feb

It has been an absolutely Awful Week for everyone who has been paying attention to the latest release of the Epstein files, both on this continent and around the world. We’re taking a look at what the documents reveal about Europe’s rich and powerful and whether any overdue reckonings might come out of the horrific revelations. On the brighter side: we also discuss a sitting president who does NOT want to be handed the Nobel Peace Prize. A win for us all!

Our guest this week is journalist Salsabil Fayed, co-author of the recent Follow the Money investigation “U.S. donors bankroll Europe’s policy ideas through think tanks”. (Gulp.) What does it mean that some of the biggest American tech companies are financing some of the work of some of the most influential think tanks on this side of the Atlantic? Salsabil spells it all out.

DOMINIC KRAEMER
Hello, and welcome to this latest episode of the Europeans, your weekly dose of Euro chatter to be consumed via your ears. This week, we'll be talking about a European leader who doesn't think they should get the Nobel Peace Prize. We'll be looking into the European fallout from the Jeffrey Epstein files. And we'll be finding out about an investigation into US donors bankrolling European policy ideas through think tanks. That's all coming up this week and more because we'll have our usual cultural picks and a happy ending to close out the show.
I'm Dominic Kramer and I'm joined by Katz Laszlo this week. Hi, Katz.
KATZ LASZLO
Hi.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
How are you doing? Are you recovering from seeing everyone in full human form last week?
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah, we don't need to catch up. I already know how you are.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
It's true.
KATZ LASZLO
Let's get on and make a podcast.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Let's do that. I was gonna ask you if you've been watching the Olympics, but actually I haven't and you probably haven't either.
KATZ LASZLO
I definitely haven't.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Let's get on with the show then.
[MUSIC]
KATZ LASZLO
Shall we start with you, Dominic? Who's had a good week?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Well, there were various options for me to choose from this week. For example, Portugal just elected a centre-left socialist president, but he isn't getting good week. I'm giving good week to the president of Moldova, another president, Maia Sandu, who gave a masterclass in how to respond to news that you have been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize this past week.
She effectively distanced herself from the nomination, saying on the Moldovan TV show Cutia Neagră that Ukrainian prisoners of war deserve the prize more than her.
KATZ LASZLO
Wow, it's so refreshing to hear about a leader who isn't desperately trying to get their hands on a Nobel Peace Prize.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
I know, right? And look, this kind of humility gets you a coveted good week slot of the Europeans. It pays off. Although we don't offer any financial reward with our good week, unlike the Nobel Peace Prize, which I discovered comes with a prize of just under 1 million euros in Swedish krona.
KATZ LASZLO
I have to say in this housing market, I'm not sure I'm above trading humility for 1 million euros. Yes, please.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
What have you done to deserve the Nobel Peace Prize, Katz?
KATZ LASZLO
I'll work on it. Give me another couple of years.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
You might also think that Maia Sandu, like, wouldn't need that money. She's the president of a country after all. And yes, there are certainly Europeans who could do with that money much more than her.
But I also learned this week that Sandu has yet more humble credentials. She is probably the lowest-paid president in the world.
KATZ LASZLO
Wow, what a title.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
She only gets the equivalent of about 1000 euros per month in salary for her job. That's something, right? I actually heard her talking about this on The Rest Is Politics podcast last week.
And Sandu herself has actually increased the salaries of Moldovan ministers since coming into power because she says you need to have a decent salary in order to be able to afford to work for the government. And I have to say I agree with her, because there's a danger that if salaries are so low for politicians, it leads to more corruption, or to a situation where only people with huge wealth already can actually stand for office and do those jobs. Anyway, I've gotten on a bit of a tangent. Shall I tell you why Sandu was nominated for the Peace Prize in the first place?
KATZ LASZLO
Yes, please.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Well, it was a nomination from a member of the Norwegian Parliament, a Green Party politician called Arild Hermstad.
He said he was nominating President Sandu because she has been, quote, crucial to stopping Russia's attempts to tear down Moldovan democracy. Sandu has responded to the Russians with peaceful means to strengthen the rule of law, protect free elections and stick to a democratic course. Hermstad says democracy is a prerequisite for true peace.
And for those of you who don't know much about Moldova, it's a country at the frontline of Russia's attempts to destabilise democracy in Europe. About two and a half million people live there. It's landlocked and it borders Ukraine and Romania and also contains a breakaway enclave called Transnistria, which has a de facto government that is supported by Russia militarily, politically and economically.
I heard the Moldovan Deputy Prime Minister saying to Euronews last week that being neither a member of NATO or the EU creates a significant dose of anxiety. They hope to ease some of that anxiety about Russian threats by becoming EU members. Moldova is a candidate country and there is a goal from the Moldovan government to sign accession to the European Union by 2028.
I'm not sure quite how realistic that is now that we're in 2026, but let's see. But to give you an idea of how Russia interferes in Moldova's democratic systems, the Moldovan elections last year were absolutely rife with reports of Russian interference, both the spreading of disinformation and allegations of brazen attempts by pro-Russian forces to buy votes. I think we talked about this on the podcast back then, right? My memory is a sieve.
KATZ LASZLO
Don't put me on the spot here.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Anyway, despite all that election interference, Sandu's pro-European party, the Party of Action and Solidarity, won more than 50% of the vote in the parliamentary elections.
KATZ LASZLO
Wow, that's quite an accomplishment. This is another tangent, but didn't Sandu make quite a controversial statement recently about supporting unification of Moldova and Romania?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, she did. She said that if there were a referendum on whether to unify with Romania, she would actually vote in favour because of how difficult it is for a small country like Moldova to survive as a democratic sovereign country and how difficult it is to resist Russia.
KATZ LASZLO
That is quite an extraordinary statement to hear coming from the mouth of a president of a sovereign country. I guess we could just join this other one.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, it really is. And actually, after that statement, Sandu was accused of treason by some opposition politicians.
KATZ LASZLO
And, I mean, is it actually a realistic thing? Is unification with Romania actually on the table?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Not currently, no. Well, or maybe it is now that Sandu has said this. She was actually backed by Prime Minister Alexandru Munteanu, who also said he would vote yes if there were a referendum.
But he and she both acknowledged that Moldovan unification with Romania does not have the support of a majority of people in Moldova currently. That said, it's not like it's a totally fringe idea and it's not a new idea. Currently, I think somewhere roughly around 30% of Moldovans support unification if you look at the latest polls.
The languages that Moldovans and Romanians speak is pretty much the same. And many Moldovans have dual citizenship with Romania. By some estimates, almost half of the Moldovan population, including Maya Sandu herself.
But yeah, the fact that a president is saying this about possible unification just shows how vulnerable a pro-European, pro-democratic Moldovan politician like Sandu feels. She seems willing to do just about anything to stop Russia from gaining more of a foothold in her country. And her urgency is understandable when you look at what's happening next door in Ukraine.
Last week, President Zelenskyy revealed that 55,000 Ukrainian soldiers have been killed since Russia's full-scale invasion began nearly four years ago.
KATZ LASZLO
Oh my god, that's so many people.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah. And meanwhile, Russia's latest attacks on Ukraine's energy infrastructure have left thousands dealing with power cuts in brutal freezing temperatures. Some areas dropped recently to minus 20 degrees Celsius.
KATZ LASZLO
Oh my god.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
So it's perhaps no surprise that Sandu said that she thought the Nobel Peace Prize should go to the Ukrainian prisoners of war. 157 of them whom returned home last week in the first prisoner exchange with Russia in five months. Sandu said that those who give their lives for peace deserve the prize before her.
KATZ LASZLO
Fair enough.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
And I actually got in touch with Arild Hermstad, the Norwegian politician who had nominated Maia Sandu for the Nobel Prize, to ask him what he made of her rebuttal of her nomination. And he said that he had the utmost respect for her reasoning. And he went on to say, I firmly believe that Maia Sandu's work for democracy and peace deserves stronger international recognition.
Standing up to Russian election interference and hybrid warfare through peaceful democratic means is peace building for our time. Moldova fights a battle on behalf of us all. That Sandu chooses to highlight Ukraine's struggle demonstrates both wisdom and personal integrity. Her humility and principled stance only reinforce the significance of her nomination.
KATZ LASZLO
So maybe she might get the prize anyway, even if she doesn't actually want it herself.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
We'll have to wait and see. Who's had a bad week, Katz?
KATZ LASZLO
Well, it's a big one. It has been a bad week for the rich and powerful people whose relationship to Jeffrey Epstein has been exposed in the latest release of legal documents that were published last week, about three and a half million documents. And also a bad week for the hundreds of victims who have seen very little accountability faced by the people that harmed them while being treated with not nearly enough dignity by the courts and the press.
One of the many examples is that many of the survivors who testified anonymously had their names published in these documents. Meanwhile, some people who have broken the law seem to still have their names redacted out.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, I find the depressing scale of this all just so baffling. All the people he harmed and all the many people who were pally with him. Where are you even going to begin with this today, Katz?
KATZ LASZLO
Yes, so there is a giant amount of news about Epstein. But we decided to cover it at the Europeans too, because as you put it to me, Dominic, most people are probably hearing about the particular powerful people in their home countries who are implicated. But the core of this story is how many people are connected to this man.
Like it's powerful people in every country, in every political spectrum, and in a lot of different industries. And so what's connecting them is interest in either money, power, or sex with young women and girls, often all three of those things. But to get into it, maybe I should start by giving a very, very brief summary of how we got to where are today.
To put it very, very briefly, Epstein is the disgraced financier who was convicted of paedophilia in 2008, after assaulting a 14-year-old girl. And then he killed himself in a prison cell in 2019, after it began unravelling that he had built an enormous network of sex trafficking and child abuse. A lot of people had claimed to have broken with him after his first conviction in 2008, or that they didn't know the extent of his charges.
But the files show that many of these people definitely did not break contact. And while the scale of his crimes were not nearly as clear then as they are now, he was still convicted of child abuse. And it's hard to imagine some of the most powerful people with teams of advisors did not know that.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah. And obviously, Epstein was a US citizen. But the reason why you're talking about today is because quite a lot of high profile Europeans have been mentioned in these Epstein files.
Can you talk a bit about who we know was connected, or in some cases, very connected to Epstein?
KATZ LASZLO
Yes, there's millions of files, and many of those still need to be interpreted. And each story is pretty shocking and complicated. So we absolutely will not have the time to cover most of it.
But I'll do my very best to give an overview, starting with a quick summary of who has been exposed by the latest publication of files. First off, we have Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, the former Prince of the British Royal Family. He's since lost his titles last year.
And he's also been told to leave his royal mansion. He appears in much more detail than previously. There's a photo of him on all fours over a young woman on the floor.
Another royal who appears is Norway's Crown Princess Mette-Marit. She maintained contact with him years after his paedophilia conviction in 2008. There's hundreds of emails calling him things like sweetheart and soft-hearted.
And she publicly denied that she knew the full extent of his charges. Even if she didn't know the details, it's, as I said, pretty difficult to believe that you wouldn't have noticed that a close friend has been subject to abundant press attention after being charged with child abuse. But it's becoming increasingly less credible because in the emails, she wrote to him that she'd been looking into him and that it quote, doesn't look good with a smiley emoji.
It's been a particularly atrocious week for her because her son is also facing 32 legal charges, including four counts of rape. And in the Epstein files, there is an email she sent asking if it was okay to give her, at the time, 15-year-old son wallpaper of naked women.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
A very, very bad week for the Norwegian royal family. Yeah, and you could have thought that all this news over the past week might make it existentially bad for the Norwegian royals. But I did read that a majority of the Norwegian public still support their monarchy.
KATZ LASZLO
Indeed, there's more Norwegians to come. Another Norwegian is Børge Brende, who is the CEO of the World Economic Forum, which also organises Davos. He had several business dinners with Epstein after his conviction, but there's nothing incriminating beyond that so far, and he remains the CEO for now.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
So we've got royals, we've got finance people. How about politicians?
KATZ LASZLO
Yes, few more Norwegians to go. The former Norwegian Labour PM, Thorbjørn Lagland, is being investigated for aggravated corruption, specifically whether he might have received travel perks and money from Epstein in connection to his former positions as the Secretary General of the Council of Europe, as well as the Norwegian Nobel Committee. I realise this is a lot of information, but we've still got a few people to go.
More Norwegians, Mona Juul and Terje Røde-Larsen are a married couple who are both quite senior diplomats, and they were involved in all kinds of things, including the Oslo peace agreements between Israel and Palestine. And we now know that they had extensive contact with Epstein well after his first conviction. In fact, in one version of Epstein's will, each of their children was set to inherit 5 million euros from Epstein.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Oh, wow. And that was just Norway. Wow.
I don't know where these Norwegian politicians are on the political spectrum, but I found it extraordinary to see that this scandal connects Epstein to people from all across the political spectrum. And also not just politicians and royals, but just extremely powerful people from so many different areas of society.
KATZ LASZLO
One of the many things that struck me in this exposure of the Epstein files is, it sounds disturbingly close to what conspiracy theorists were talking about a couple of years ago, like a ring of powerful elite who were involved in a network of extreme wealth, and were willing to ignore his conviction of paedophilia and take his money. It's not clear yet who did and didn't show interest in women and girls. And that obviously does matter.
For example, there is no evidence that the US far-right political maverick Steve Bannon was actually using his relationship to Epstein for sex. But clearly, especially if you listen to the victim statements, there were many, many more powerful men than Epstein interested in sexually violating these women and girls. If one thing is clear from these files, it is that crimes varying from corruption, to violence against women, to in some cases child abuse, have happened across the political spectrum.
Now, a lot of these people have been trying to frame themselves as not having known. But I just find it incredibly difficult to believe that from that position of power, you show up at someone's house or a party or an island with a convicted sex offender surrounded by some of the most powerful men in the world, and then a bunch of young models from all over the world. And you don't ask yourself a few questions about power dynamics.
It seems that the more important factor here is what behaviour we've normalised and what you may or may not face consequences for.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Absolutely. So I know you've got quite a list of other Europeans that have been named in this in these files. So yeah, where are we going next?
KATZ LASZLO
Next up, we have Slovakia's former foreign minister, Miroslav Lajčák. He denied having communicated specifically about women after a previous round of files was published that showed he had quite a lot of intimate contact with Epstein last year. But now what has come out is a blanked out image from Epstein.
And then Lajčák responded, I would take that MI girl. And then the text exchange goes on and Epstein says, they are under 30, probably too young for you. Or should I say under 50?
And then Lajčák responds, don't be mean, you don't know me in action. Lajčák resigned shortly after this round of files was published, but nationalist PM Fico has staunchly defended him.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Okay, so he's one of the people who's been exposed by these files as having lied.
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah, and after Epstein died, it wasn't clear if we would ever know what really happened. But now I can imagine that there are a lot of powerful people nervously waiting to see what is going to be revealed about them or the people that they work with. Next up, we have French former culture minister and his daughter, who among other things, worked at Warner, the film company.
Their names are Jack and Caroline Lang. They also spent time with Epstein, they accepted money and used his private jet as late as 2017, which is nine years after he'd been charged for child abuse. They have both also resigned from their jobs in the past two weeks.
But much like everyone else, they deny any wrongdoing. Next up, we are full circle back the Brits, Peter Mandelson. He was a minister under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown and was most recently the UK ambassador to the US.
And the latest publication of files show that he sent various confidential government documents to Epstein. These were market sensitive documents being shared with a very powerful financier in 2008, so peak financial crisis. And they were sometimes forwarded minutes after Mandelson had received them.
In the past few days, Prime Minister Keir Starmer's chief of staff, who was responsible for Mandelson's hire, has also resigned.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, and I think Keir Starmer is hoping very much that that resignation of his chief of staff is going to mean that he doesn't have to resign himself. But I think unfortunately for Keir, those calls for him to resign aren't going to stop anytime soon. But I don't think we can entirely blame the Epstein files for that.
But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd resigned by the time this episode comes out. But he could well survive. Anyway, it would be pretty ironic if the Epstein scandal forced Starmer out of power whilst that orange man in the United States stays in place, who actually had much of a closer relationship to Epstein.
I think Starmer actually never met Epstein. Not that I'm defending Keir Starmer here. But anyway, get us back on track, Katz.
KATZ LASZLO
Yes, back on track. Another Brit involved is Richard Branson, the business magnate who founded the Virgin Group that you might know from phone companies and the airline and music. He also texted Epstein about women.
And then there is in a completely different discipline, the scientist, British physicist Stephen Hawking was also accused of participating in a quote, underage orgy, according to the witness, Virginia Giuffre.
The last Europeans I'll speak about in any kind of detail is the Rothschild family, the Swiss bankers. They oversaw 184 billion Swiss francs worth of assets in 2024. And back in 2018, the family business was in trouble as they helped cover up various rich Americans who hid their assets. According to the emails, Ariane de Rothschild paid Epstein $25 million for help in a settlement deal which was reached with the US Department of Justice shortly after Epstein was involved. So there's also that.
There are various remaining people named, including Belgian Prince Laurent and former Spanish PM José María Aznar. But their role in Epstein's life remains unclear. And a mention in itself is obviously not an incrimination.
But I'm sure there are very many busy journalists looking into this. And there's also another 3 million files that haven't been published, although pressure is rising to publish those too. Regardless, there's still a lot to find in what we do have.
And so there's going to be a lot more coming soon.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
And yeah, considering these files have only recently been published, maybe this is too big a question. But these are all powerful people. Have we got any idea about like how much Epstein actually influenced European politics?
KATZ LASZLO
I mean, I think we're still figuring it out. But it is just so wild to me, the scale of this, like, I've given you almost no analysis on any of these individual people and their roles in shaping our politics. But obviously, each one of them deserves that.
On a political level, it seems like Steve Bannon and Jeffrey Epstein had pretty extensive contact about the European parliamentary elections. Bannon talked about raising funds for various far right parties, including Marine Le Pen's party in France, and Matteo Salvini's far right party in Italy. Bannon also had meetings with various people in Germany's AfD party. And they were both very invested in Merkel no longer being in power.
Now, what I find particularly depressing about this is that most of us European citizens don't even really learn that much about how the EU works at school or in our own national newspapers barely cover the European parliamentary elections. Turnout is really low. And here are these two very rich and powerful American men showing loads of interest. So if ever there was a motivation to inform yourself, this is it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
But so some people have resigned, some people have been stripped of titles. Epstein himself died by suicide in custody. So there's not going to be any accountability there.
I know the UK police have opened a criminal investigation into Peter Mandelson and are also looking into allegations that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor also shared confidential government information with Epstein. But has anyone else faced any legal accountability yet? I mean, especially for the allegations of child abuse.
KATZ LASZLO
So not a single one of these people has been arrested, nor have they testified in court. Most of them haven't even spoken to the press, although there is mounting pressure and people are starting to give interviews. Ghislaine Maxwell was arrested and convicted already before these files were released.
And I mean, she has caused hundreds of victims harm and was absolutely instrumental in enabling Epstein. So she should face accountability. But it's still amazing that the only person who has been arrested currently, because of this massive structure of powerful men, sexually assaulting young women and girls is a woman.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, that is extraordinary. And I really hope that that will change. Could we talk a bit about the people who were assaulted by Epstein?
KATZ LASZLO
Absolutely. And not just Epstein, because indeed, the people we're hearing much less from is the survivors of these crimes. There are hundreds of now women from all over, including many European former models.
One of the most prominent people to come forward, who was also one of the first people to speak publicly about this is Virginia Giuffre. She died by suicide in the spring of last year. And while it's impossible to say what exactly motivated her, the justice system and press treatment of the people who have come forward has certainly not been supportive of these victims.
Nor has it even been particularly professional. One of the many outrageous things that has happened is that the names of many of the survivors who had testified anonymously were published unredacted in these files, including their contact information, which is illegal, by the way. Let's see if anyone faces any consequences for that.
And even once it became clear that these people's contact information and names were mentioned, some of them have since been redacted, but a lot of them haven't. And well, either way, it's too late, like it's been published, you can't take that back. Meanwhile, there are still the names of many people who could feasibly be prosecuted for all kinds of crimes, including child abuse, that have still been redacted out.
And it's not clear why they would do that other than to protect them from consequences. Many of the people who we do know have broken laws have also been granted immunity through their political positions. All of which begs the question, who are we trying to protect here?
Because the reasons victims are coming forward is because they don't want women and girls to be violated. And being fired from your job is not a legal consequence for sexual assault. And it doesn't do anything to prevent further abuse.
Some additional reporting I would like to recommend for the Spanish speakers listening is El País's daily podcast that framed all of their reporting around the many mistakes that have failed the people harmed by these powerful people. Other reporting is The Guardian's interview with Lisa Phillips, one of the survivors of Epstein, who's spoken publicly in the past week. A link to these will both be in the show notes.
And she just talks about the complete lack of accountability and also just what does accountability even mean? As Lisa puts it, her personality completely changed after she was violated and serious mental health impacts after being violated by someone who then faces no accountability for the harm that they caused you. That is a completely predictable and normal response to very, very horrible circumstances.
And unfortunately, it's just incredibly common that with these kinds of crimes, the person who does the harm is protected and the person who has been harmed becomes isolated and has their life changed, which isn't just immoral. Like the biggest predicting factor for post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, is not what happened to you. It is how people around it responded.
So the way the justice system, the enablers and we as a society respond, it really matters on a practical level. And the way that the people who've come forward are being treated by the courts, by the press, and by the general public is a far cry from the dignity you might hope for. So as the French Gisèle Pelicot made clear in her own court case about sexual violence, it's on us as a society to reallocate the shame to the people who cause the harm, rather than punishing the people who come forward and name it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, Gisèle Pelicot is a very, very inspiring person. I can't believe she has the strength to say like such wise things after everything she's been through, along with these survivors of Epstein's crimes. Yeah, I find it very, very depressing and overwhelming and so large in scale.
And yeah, I mean, just the sheer number of files also seems just sometimes too much to deal with. But yeah, what can we do as individuals to undo the normalising of the behaviour of Epstein and all his powerful friends?
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah, I completely understand that. I mean, you'd be forgiven for numbing out about this. As we've established, it's incredibly normalised.
And I do wonder when we're going to stop focussing on like these individual people who should absolutely be held accountable and are not, but also have a reckoning with what made this possible and how normalised sexual violence is and also take some practical steps to change this broken system. Because to zoom out a bit, for example, in the Netherlands, 0.4% of rape cases ever end up in being charged.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
0.4%. Yeah, that's absolutely depressing. And I know it's pretty bad in many other European countries as well.
KATZ LASZLO
Yes, it's not something we've figured out. I think sometimes we talk about both child abuse and violence against women as if it's a super rare thing. But the cold and uncomfortable reality is it happens all the time and not just among the most powerful people in the world.
The statistics are widely believed to be underrepresentative, because it's such a taboo to come forward. But US statistics say that 81% of women report experiencing sexual assault at some point in their lifetimes, 42% in men. And as Dutch actress Soundos El Ahmadi put it on Belgian TV last week, she is fed up of having a feelings-based conversations about this, debating on whether or not women and girls are unsafe, when the fact is that they aren't.
And it reminds me a bit of the climate debate where you get stuck in this conversation about whether misogyny is really happening, what kind, and how widespread, and never actually get to looking at what's causing the problems, what the consequences are, and how you can fix it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Is there anything we can do to fix that?
KATZ LASZLO
Something people who work in this field say a lot is that generally people are willing to accept that women and girls are assaulted frequently. But what they're much less willing to accept is that their brother, father, friend, person that they work with was the person doing the assaulting. And well, there's not going to be a serious decrease in sexual violence until we face the fact that a disturbingly large portion of the population is prepared to commit sexist violence.
And on some level, we have seemed to have accepted that. I mean, if you really listen to women and girls, you would know that it is far from uncommon that teenage girls get sexual attention from men decades older than them. And to go back to these very powerful men, of course, we don't know exactly what all of these people were doing yet, and that is important.
But like, seeing photos of the richest men in the world with really young women, that wasn't some secret, like we have an entire industry of teenage girls modelling. And I'm deeply shocked. Of course I am.
But the honest answer is, it's also hard to say that I am 100% surprised that these ridiculously rich men were and are living above the law and causing much less powerful people a lot of harm along the way. Now, it is hardly a silver lining, and I think it would be offensive to look for one. And many are sceptical that this is really a reckoning.
But I hope that as awful as the story is, it will move us towards a more honest conversation about just how prevalent sexual violence is. Because looking away from it is not going to do the victims any favours. And the more we're willing to look at the facts of this kind of abuse and inform ourselves on what actually helps, the better equipped we are to respond in a much more effective way when it actually happens around us.
And clearly, we're just not there yet.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Well, thank you, Katz, for that very thoughtful explanation and reflection on a pretty terrible part of humanity and society. We now have to somehow awkwardly transition away from that and into asking our listeners for money, which feels rather inappropriate.
KATZ LASZLO
But yeah, it does feel strange. It does remind me actually of something that Morgan said last week, that it does help to have a place like this podcast to digest this horrible news, because it's happening. And so I felt extra grateful this week to the people who did choose to support us.
If you would like more pan-European news in your ears that is fully independent, then please sign up either on our website or at patreon.com forward slash Europeans podcast, then you will be in the company of these lovely people. Mila, Alexandra, Andy, Alexander, John, Louis, Nikolai. Thank you so much to all of these people, as well as Willem and Amiya for increasing their donations.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Thank you all so much.
[MUSIC]
Now time to move on to the interview segment of the show. This is the section of the show this week that is made in collaboration with our radio partners across Europe at Euranet Plus.
And for this interview, Katy is back in the hosting seat. Hi, Katy. Thanks for being here.
KATY LEE
I just couldn't help myself. I was meant to be having a week off, but here I am somehow.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
And who can blame you because we have a wonderful guest this week. Salsabil Fayed, a financial journalist from the independent investigative outlet Follow the Money, who are putting out a lot of really impressive stories at the moment. Check them out if you don't know their work already.
We've invited Salsabil onto the show to talk about one specific investigation that they published recently, which was looking into the funding of think tanks in Brussels. So these organisations who write a lot of policy reports, but they also have some of the most privileged access to lawmakers at the highest level of policymaking in the EU. And here's the headline figure that really grabbed our attention.
They discovered that about one third of all funding of the biggest think tanks in Brussels comes from the US.
KATY LEE
Which, yeah, you know, maybe we wouldn't have battered an eyelid at before the second term of that old orange man over there in the White House. But nowadays, that at least feels like something we should spend some time talking about, right?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly what we're here to do today. Because if some of Brussels most influential think tanks are partly funded by US money, can we really be sure they have Europe's best interests at heart?
Are these organisations being swayed by the cash they receive, especially when so much of it comes from private companies, and specifically tech giants like Google, Microsoft and Meta. In fact, just those three companies alone poured over 7 million euros into think tanks that are active in Brussels in 2023, according to follow the money's analysis. So yeah, how worried should we be about all this foreign money flowing into our political process?
To find out, we spoke to Salsabil Fayed in Brussels.
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DOMINIC KRAEMER
Hi, Salsabil, thank you so much for joining us today on The Europeans.
SALSABIL FAYED
Hi, thank you for having me.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
We hear a lot about think tanks in Brussels and Washington, but most of us don't really understand what they do. Like how exactly do these organisations operate? And what is their typical relationship with governments and lawmakers?
SALSABIL FAYED
I understand the question, the confusion also, because think tanks, you might think they are like research institutions, because they publish a lot of reports that look very scientific. But actually, they are basically sounding boards for lawmakers. So usually they will have experts to dig into one topic or another and then write reports on that.
Think tanks are usually perceived and they like to perceive themselves as neutral, independent. That's their whole credibility is based around that idea of neutrality, nonpartisan. But yeah, when we dig into it, sometimes we find that it's not actually the case.
KATY LEE
And you've been doing a really interesting investigation, according to which think tanks that have a lot of influence here in Europe are using huge infusions of money that are coming from American companies. Now, how would their operations change if those think tanks were able to say, oh, no, thanks. Taking this money is actually making us less able to be neutral.
SALSABIL FAYED
I think that it depends on where you receive the money. So for example, you could say that you have European companies also giving money to think tanks. So you could highlight your neutrality if you have different sources, a variety of sources, because then you are less dependent on one specific category.
And for example, if you are a think tank who received, first of all, a lot of money from the U.S., but secondly, a lot of money from big U.S. corporations like Google, Meta, Microsoft, then you're really dependent on that specific sector. So it makes you more vulnerable to this specific sector. So I think the most important and I think you can use that for any entities, basically.
You can say that also for civil society. The more variety you have in your source of funds, the better it is for you to stay independent and to also show that to the outside world.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
What is the line between a think tank and a lobbyist? I mean, the way you're describing it, it sounds like they actually do quite a bit of lobbying.
SALSABIL FAYED
Yeah, I think the most important difference is with lobbying. You know exactly what that person or that organisation stands for. It's not afraid to say that I'm lobbying for this organisation or for the tech company, for the oil companies.
I'm lobbying even for climate change. You know, you're OK with the lobbying aspect and you show what your values are and what you're lobbying actually for. And with think tanks, it's a bit more difficult and that's why it took longer to investigate it because it's not very clear what they stand for.
You can see their websites, they have different subjects that they write a lot about, for example, on tech, on defence, on climate, but you cannot pinpoint exactly what they are aiming for. And that's actually the risk for lawmakers is you don't actually know if you're meeting with the research aspect and the neutral part of the organisation or are you meeting with some kind of funder behind it who wants to fund a specific report of that think tank and that think tank is representing that report.
KATY LEE
We interviewed lots of really smart people who work for think tanks, who are very passionate about their areas of expertise and who I'm sure would push back against the idea that they write what they write because they are chilling for some company that has covered their salaries. I'm curious how you think we could pass the difference between influence and ideology. Is it possible to know, for example, that a paper that is pushing for deregulation might look different if it hadn't been funded, for example, in part by a company like Microsoft or Meta?
SALSABIL FAYED
I understand their standpoint and I'm not painting like think tanks and all their funders are trying to push a specific agenda because of their funders. I think an important part of our investigation was to dive into the think tanks because that's not researched enough. We have a lot of research on NGOs, on corporations, but not enough on think tanks.
An important part that I want to just highlight is also that from all the think tanks that we investigated, a lot of them didn't have annual reports or specific details of their funders. So this makes it actually more difficult to be able to say that not all think tanks are bad, but like we need to be able to show that these think tanks have to be more transparent about their funders because the more transparent you are, the less risk you have of your report being questioned.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Google told you that it had policies in place to protect the independence of the think tanks. It was funding. Do you know what these policies look like and whether they're actually working?
SALSABIL FAYED
I'm not sure, but I know that in general think tanks would use board members, just like in corporate world, you would use board members and management committees to protect the independence of an organisation. So think tank would use also those kinds of structures to protect their independence, but it obviously has limits because you can see, for example, there is one Karan Bhatia, who is board member of the Atlantic Council, but at the same time, she's also the head of public policy at Google and Atlantic Council receives funds from Google.
KATY LEE
That's awkward.
SALSABIL FAYED
So you have also another example of, again, at the Atlantic Council, you have Teresa Carlson, who's a member of the executive committee of the think tank, but is also a corporate vice president of Microsoft, who also gives funds to the think tank. You have these examples of how board members is useful, but there's also loopholes in it where you can see there is conflict of interests. So there are policies, but they're not perfect. And you can find examples when you dig deep enough.
KATY LEE
What changes would you like to see in the way that European think tanks operate?
SALSABIL FAYED
We talked earlier about the lobbying aspect, and EU lobbying is centred around transparency. And for that example, you have the transparency register, where, for example, an organisation will have to register at the transparency register to be able to meet with officials, with senior officials. So the thing with this is that, first of all, when you compare the data that's inputted in the transparency register with the websites of the annual report or the financial reports of distinct things, it doesn't match.
And secondly, so we had like a top 50 think tanks, I think half of them didn't even have financial reports. So we couldn't even find their funders. And I think the most important evolution that we need to see is more transparency from the think tanks, because you can also choose as a think tank to say, OK, it's not mandatory to publish my financial report, but I will do it because I want to show the funders and the people that what I'm writing comes from different sources.
Yeah. So I think that's the biggest evolution I want to see.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Do you think you would have done this investigation if Trump hadn't been elected? I mean, to some extent, it feels like up until Trump's second term, the EU kind of vaguely felt like the US interests were vaguely aligned with the EU interests. And now it's clear that that isn't entirely the case. Is that why you did the investigation?
SALSABIL FAYED
Yeah, for sure. I think that it's more difficult to explain to the readers that we have to also investigate the US and make sure that the influence of the US is limited. Then if you have somebody like Trump in office, then it's easier also to explain to the reader why we investigated, because the US is for decades has been aligned with European values on democracy, equality, equity.
But now it's the total opposite on these parts. So I think it's also a reason why we started this investigation and why it is crucial to look into the influence also from the US and not only from the usual suspects, you know, China, Russia, and Iran.
KATY LEE
Well, it's a fascinating investigation, Salsabil. Kudos to your team at Follow the Money. Before we let you go, I'm curious to ask, you are an investigative journalist now, but your background is as a financial analyst, right?
Like, why did you decide to make that transition?
SALSABIL FAYED
Yeah, that's correct. I think ever since I was a kid, I always dreamt of being like a journalist. Some kids would play at being a professor or, you know, I was playing at being a journalist.
So that was always in the back of my head. But then I chose finance because I was really very good with numbers and analytically and I found it very fascinating. But then I think it was five years ago, I thought to myself, yeah, why not?
Why not just try and see what happens? There's nothing to lose. So I started courses in journalism and I ended up at Follow the Money.
And actually, when you think about it, there's not very much difference between finance and financial analysis and investigative reporting, because you really have to connect the dots. And with finance, you have to connect the dots on the annual reports and try to make sure that the company earns as much money as possible. But then as investigative journalist, you also have to connect the dots, not to make sure that the company earns more, but to expose the company.
So it's really, when I see it, it's really similar, actually.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Both are just following the money.
SALSABIL FAYED
It's also just following the money.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
There you go.
KATY LEE
Thank you so much for joining us today.
SALSABIL FAYED
Thank you for having me.
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DOMINIC KRAEMER
I mentioned up top that Google, Microsoft and Meta alone had given 7 million euros to think active in Brussels in 2023. And it's worth thinking about why they would want to have this influence in the heart of European regulation making. And I guess it's because the EU is arguably the world leader in tech regulation, like from the GDPR to the Digital Services Act and Digital Markets Act.
There are a lot of tools in place that you can use to help protect the and well-being of EU citizens. Though, as we discussed last year in our interview with internet and privacy expert Johnny Ryan, Europe often struggles to enforce its own rules in the digital sphere. And is some of that because of lobbying or the influence of think tanks?
KATY LEE
Yeah, I actually read a piece in Politico this week, I'll share a link to it. But it was about growing pressure on the EU to create a new regulator to implement and enforce its digital laws, but a regulator that would be completely independent from the political system. And that feels like something that is getting more and more necessary by the day with the Trump administration putting more and more pressure on the EU to not enforce its own rules when it comes to tech regulation.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Interesting. That sounds like one of those ideas that maybe some of these US organisations funding those think tanks might not like. Let's see if it comes to anything.
KATY LEE
Yeah, maybe not.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Anyway, big thanks to Salsabil for joining us today. Head to our show notes if you want to find a link to the article of the investigation and also to an episode of the follow the money podcast that also looks into this issue.
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DOMINIC KRAEMER
Time to head into the inspiration station where we share our favourite European culture from the past week.
KATZ LASZLO
Yes, Dominic, what have you been listening to watching doing?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Well, as I mentioned a few weeks ago, I'm trying to gradually move towards more European based tech and where possible more ethical tech companies and I needed to buy a new phone. My old Samsung was really on its last legs. I was shopping around and I was almost tempted to move back to Apple and get an iPhone because I just like the pretty design.
And I'm always jealous of photos that iPhone users can make. But I resisted that impulse and I went with arguably the most ethical phone on the market, the Fairphone 6. Now, if you haven't heard of Fairphone, it's a Dutch tech company, a social enterprise, and they've been making modular phones that are easily repairable since back in 2013. Their phones are manufactured in China.
But with this latest model, 50% of it is made out of fair and recycled materials, which they claim is a higher percentage than any other smartphone on the market. But yeah, one of the best things about this phone is that it's designed to last.
Unlike some other phones that are designed to become obsolete, so that you're forced to buy a new one. The Fairphone comes with a whopping five-year warranty. And if one part of the phone goes wrong, like the camera or the battery, it's a modular phone. So you can just order a new part and like open up the back of the phone and replace it yourself without having to go to a shop.
KATZ LASZLO
That's really cool.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
It is really cool.
KATZ LASZLO
I am curious how you're finding it though, because I used to work with your husband who had one, and it does not always work very well.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
It's true. So I was quite reluctant to get a Fairphone because my husband has had a Fairphone for a long time. And it's never really worked very well.
But um, this Fairphone 6 does seem to be better than the old one that my husband has. And so far, I'm very happy with it. I should stress that I would have been pretty happy with any new phone because on my ageing Samsung, nothing worked.
And there are a few little software glitches that I hope they'll iron out. But it's nothing that really causes problems for me. The battery life is good.
It's got a pretty design. And I paid about 550 euros for it, which is not cheap, but about half the price of buying a brand new iPhone.
KATZ LASZLO
It is gone are the days of like a 10 euro phone.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
I know. So yeah, I'd really recommend it if like me, you're trying to move away from giving money to big US tech giants that are donating to Trump. And if you want to invest in European tech and more ethically made tech, you can buy this Fairphone with an Android operating system with Google like I did.
Or if you're feeling really hardcore, you can buy it with a Google free open source operating system, which is definitely something to consider if you are very privacy minded. Anyway, that's my tip for the week. I realised this does this count as cultural.
You did with this segment is broken. What have you been enjoying, Katz?
KATZ LASZLO
Well, similar theme, but I've been doing the opposite. What I've been doing is not to looking at my phone in the morning. And it's clearly also a weird cultural recommendation, but I'd really like to recommend it because basically...
DOMINIC KRAEMER
You said this on the podcast last week as well, Katz. But fine, you can say it twice.
KATZ LASZLO
Literally, I just don't look at my phone for the first like hour or two of the day. And then the other thing is that I've removed Instagram like from my phone. So I only look at it on a desktop, which I initially thought didn't count as a digital detox.
But I'm doing it and it is unbelievable. I have so much more concentration. My memory is sharper.
Like I just cannot believe that three weeks of this.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Except you forgot that you talked about it last week.
KATZ LASZLO
Shit, I'm really not. It's been an intense week, man. There are billions of reasons to stop looking at your phone this much.
But I saw a study that phones really don't help with your cognition and not great for your future prospects of dementia.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, you shared that clip with me that's been going viral on Instagram of a Dutch radio presenter realising, reading about this study that your chances of dementia go up so much with excessive phone use.
KATZ LASZLO
I know. And I felt so ridiculous because I was also very hooked. Like I'd get these embarrassing notifications about like how much my screen time was that week.
And I just felt like ashamed of that or just like, I can't believe I don't have more control over this. But and then like, you know, in contrast, I couldn't do a seven minute workout a day. So there is absolutely no holier than thou leg to stand on here.
No Puritans on this podcast. But I finally accepted that these apps are designed to keep you addicted. And clearly, I am also just not immune to these algorithms.
And this is my way of getting about that. And since then, I'm reading loads of books. So I have way more space for all our future cultural recommendations. Thank you.
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DOMINIC KRAEMER
For my happy ending this week, we're heading to Switzerland, where a study was published that suggests that solar panels seem to have a longer lifespan than we thought. Many solar panels sold in Europe have warranty of 25 to 30 years, but a team of researchers at the University of Applied Sciences and Arts of Southern Switzerland, led by Ebra Uzcali, decided to check in on some panels installed back in the late 80s and early 90s. And guess what?
After 30 to 35 years baking in the sun, most of them are still cranking out around 80% of their original power.
KATZ LASZLO
That's amazing.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
It really is. And like, if solar panels are reliable in the longer term than expected, that's really good news in so many ways for the people who own them, of course. But also for the environment.
So I think we can all celebrate.
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DOMINIC KRAEMER
That's all we've got time for this week. Remember to subscribe to our amazing newsletter, Good Week Bad Week. It's out every Friday and is an excellent written addition to this podcast that you're listening to through your ears. Why do I keep talking about people's ears? I'm sorry.
KATZ LASZLO
It disturbs me every week. You've got to stop doing it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
You can also find us on Mastodon, Blue Sky, YouTube and Instagram. Katz isn't there, but the rest of us are. This week's episode was produced by Morgan Childs in Prague and Wojciech Oleksiak in Warsaw. Thanks, Katz, for joining me today.
KATZ LASZLO
Thank you for having me.