Hungary's Pride ban goes up in smoke (and glitter)
This year’s Budapest Pride was banned in March under the Orbán government’s contentious “child protection” law. Demonstrators were threatened with hefty fines for participating, and the government said it would employ facial-recognition technology to identify and potentially prosecute those who turned out to take part at the march on 28 June.
Did the ban work? Not in the slightest. In fact, more people than ever in the 30-year history of Budapest Pride showed up to celebrate their rights as LGBTQ+ human beings.
The massive Pride march brought a glimmer of hope to some Hungarian citizens, including this week’s guest, writer Krisztián Marton. We spoke with Krisztián about the lead-up to the event, the thrill of being on the ground last Saturday, and what might be next for Hungary, now that Viktor Orbán finally has a formidable challenger in Péter Magyar. We also chatted with Dominic’s husband, Thomas Lamers, a philosopher and dramaturg who hit the streets for us, mic in hand. (Thanks, Thomas, we owe you!)
Krisztián Marton is a screenwriter and novelist. You can follow him on Instagram here and read an excerpt in English of his Margó Prize-nominated novel Crybaby here. You can donate to Thomas’s fundraiser to pay some of the fines that may be incurred by Pride attendees here.
Inspiration Station recommendations:
Zakia Sewell’s BBC Radio 6 series Dream Time, “Solstice selections…with Zakia”
The Ukrainian band The Sixsters, winners of the European Emerging Bands Contest
Producers
Morgan Childs and Wojciech Oleksiak
Mixing and mastering
Wojciech Oleksiak
Music
Jim Barne and Mariska Martina
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DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Welcome to the Europeans, the show that talks about this continent as if we are a huge, complicated, messy family. I'm speaking to you from London today where I'm visiting my actual real family and I'm joined today in the co-hosting seat by our wonderful producer Katz Laszlo, who's speaking to me from Amsterdam, stepping in for Katie while she's off making a baby. Hi Katz.
KATZ LASZLO:
Hi.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Hi. Is it as warm over there as it is over here? I'm like sweating into my headphones. It's pretty uncomfortable.
KATZ LASZLO:
Oh my god, it's absolutely baking and it's quite funny because I'm on antibiotics because I got bitten by a tick, which is not funny. And now I can't be in direct sunlight, so I'm just leaping from shadow to shadow trying to move around.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Oh god, that's awful, I'm sorry. Ticks are pretty scary. We should talk about ticks on the podcast one day, actually.
KATZ LASZLO:
Yeah, small public service announcement. If you start to feel ill after a tick, then please go to your doctor.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, scary. Anyway, I'm glad you're here today joining us, even if you're pumped up on antibiotics. Glad we can record this in the shade.
KATZ LASZLO:
Me too. What do we got coming up, Dominic?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, we're going to begin the show, as always, by first discussing who has had a good week and who has had a bad week in Europe, and then we're going to be heading to Budapest because this past weekend, the eyes of the world were on Budapest, or, well, at least my eyes were on Budapest. I guess I shouldn't speak for the entire world.
The reason my eyes were on Budapest was because it was the 30th edition of Budapest Pride, and thanks to oppressive legislation from Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's government, the Pride march was banned. Orbán's government claimed that Pride is a danger to children. This Pride ban, however, didn't stop the event from going ahead, and in fact, some are arguing that the political move may actually have backfired on Orbán.
It was the biggest Pride march in the history of Budapest Pride, the organisers think somewhere between 180,000 and 200,000 people attended, and today we'll be speaking to two people who were there, the Hungarian author Krisztián Marton, and we'll also have a quick chat with someone I know very well who just happened to be there as well, my husband. I can't wait. Thomas interviewed some of the political celebrities that were in attendance also for us, so we'll be hearing from the Deputy Prime Minister of Spain, the Mayor of Amsterdam, and the Mayor of Budapest himself.
So it's a jam-packed show, an exciting show with lots of different voices, and yeah, I'm glad we're able to give this historic Pride march a lot of attention this week. As always, we'll round off the show later with some European cultural recommendations and a happy ending to leave you all with a pep in your step. But first, let's kick things off with Good Week, Bad Week.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Who has had a bad week, Katz?
KATZ LASZLO:
Well, it has been a bad week for Venetians. Guess who got married in our sister sinking city, Dominic?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, I already know, Katz, who got married there because we decided to cover the story together. It's Jeff Bezos.
KATZ LASZLO:
Fine, don't have fun with the storytelling.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Sorry.
KATZ LASZLO:
But yes, the fourth richest person on this planet, billionaire Jeff Bezos, married TV presenter Lauren Sanchez in a three-day wedding that I can only describe as having descended upon the people of Venice.
Lauren is a former journalist. Among other things, she was a presenter for a variety of Fox News shows. And she also flew on the first all-female tourism rocket to space.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Oh yeah, with Katy Perry.
KATZ LASZLO:
So to celebrate their wedding, the couple spent around 50 million euros on a three-day extravaganza with around 200 guests. In the words of one Guardian article, they had already gotten married in the US, making this wedding as symbolic as it was expensive. And frankly, I think the symbolism goes beyond the ceremony. It's always been a loaded thing, these mega-rich people. But I feel like things have taken a significantly darker turn since big tech has become more and more visible as an influence on our democracies, culminating in this weird, disturbing symbolism of Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, and Jeff Bezos standing right behind Trump at his inauguration.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I'm totally behind your critique of this symbolism, although I have to push back against the Guardian being shady about their wedding in Venice just being symbolic, because actually that's what I did when I got married. I got married in a town hall with just two people and then had a party with a, like, pretend wedding afterwards. So I think that's totally fine.
KATZ LASZLO:
It was a nice line, leave them alone.
Anyway, quite how incomprehensibly rich and powerful these people are is not an entirely new concept, but I don't think many of us could have imagined such a scene as that inauguration of these tech company owners having this kind of a role in our politics, say, 15 years ago when the internet was just a completely different space. So this wedding has been generating a lot of reactions.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And what's the reaction been like in Venice, like amongst Venetians?
KATZ LASZLO:
Well, it's been a pretty broad range. The mayor loves the money and attention. He's a millionaire himself, by the way. Then there's a bunch of people telling the news that they just don't care again and again. And then there's the protesters, including an incredibly effective inflatable crocodiles protest.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Oh my God, I read about this and I absolutely loved it.
KATZ LASZLO:
I knew you would. So the venue was supposed to be in a 16th century church, but a group of activists called No Space for Bezos threatened to fill the surrounding canal with inflatable crocodiles and this threat worked because the Bezos wedding moved. Now, I can't say I'm not at least a little bit sad that this means that the inflatable crocodile deluge never actually happened, even if it's probably best for everyone that it didn't.
And some reports say it had more to do with security concerns because Ivanka Trump was there. But I say in the spirit of the last episode before the summer, we go with focusing on credit to the inflatable crocodiles threat.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I'm behind that decision.
KATZ LASZLO:
Great. Now, this is one of those weddings people love to hate. And I could go on and on about all kinds of outrageous details from phone parties to Bill Gates. But in keeping with our show that's as serious as it is silly, I wanted to put the spotlight on some pretty atrocious inequality in our world and just what an unimaginable impact the mega rich have on all of our planet species, us included. Already just in how much they drive us all to buy a bunch of crap, I'm not even going to go into that. But this wedding alone, it had around 200 guests, mostly celebrities like Leonardo DiCaprio, Oprah, the Kardashians.
And it's kind of wild to me that there's a level of celebrity where your friends are not just, like, people who do the same thing as you, like a bunch of actors. Just the very richest people in each field. Like, the common factor is extortionate wealth.
But anyway, for those 200 guests, 95 private jets were used. I know that's not even counting the mega-luxury cruise ships. It is so wild that while the normies like you and me are trying to fly as little as possible on like a plane with hundreds of people on it, there are these jokers on a scale that is just not even on the same graph just using this many emissions in a single day. And it seems like Mother Nature actually had something to say about it because apparently it was a freak storm on Thursday that soaked all of these uber celebrity guests and ended the party early.
But maybe I'm getting a bit biblical here.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Oh my God, I love this. But I also think maybe you should have framed this as bad week for Jeff Bezos and Laurence Hunter having their wedding ruined by the rain.
I do have a question though, Katz. How rich is Jeff Bezos these days?
KATZ LASZLO:
So Jeff Bezos is not just a billionaire. He has $212 billion. Like I just cannot even imagine. that is the entire GDP of Hungary.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Oh my God.
KATZ LASZLO:
And more than the GDP of 150 countries in the world. And then I saw, according to CNN, if you add on the wealth of the guests, it added up to 435 billion. That means that 200 of these people have 35 billion more euros than all of Denmark.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
It is just wild. And they only spent 50 million dollars on the wedding. I mean, that sounds a bit stingy to me.
KATZ LASZLO:
I know. Actually, that was another protest. There was a huge banner that said, if you can rent Venice for your wedding, you can pay more tax.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, true that. Yeah, because I've seen a lot of the reporting that people have been saying that Bezos rented out Venice. And of course, he didn't rent out the whole city, but he did take over a lot of the city, didn't he? He had a lot of different venues.
KATZ LASZLO:
He did. I mean, the reporting is a bit mixed. Like some Venetians were just saying, like, I don't care. This isn't impacting me that much. And other people said it was a huge impact. So I find it a bit hard to tell. But I did think that this protest raised an important point about tax. Like, I can't for the life of me find it. But just a week before this loaded wedding, pun intended, I swear I was listening to a podcast about, I think, American politicians who are trying to pass a bill to ban billionaires. Like, so that once you have more than a billion euros or dollars or whatever, you have to just give the rest of the state as tax. And I always just find it so strange that there isn't more bipartisan anymore support to tax rich people more like it's just one of those policies that seems to be in the interest of ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of the population.
Now, this podcast has been waiting for years to start a European citizens initiative, which is basically like an official EU petition where if one million EU citizens sign it, that the EU has to consider it as a policy. And I'm wondering, Dominic, is this our opportunity? Oh, what, that we start a European citizens initiative to try and make billionaires outlawed in the EU?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah. I think it's a great idea. Then we can definitely give bad week to Jeff Bezos and the poor Venetians can have a very good week.
KATZ LASZLO:
OK, now that we've talked about the crocodiles quite enough, who has had a good week, Dominic?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I'm giving good week to the people of Denmark because they are soon probably going to own the copyright of their own faces, their likeness and their voices.
KATZ LASZLO:
It's actually quite strange that we don't own our faces already. Why is this necessary?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I do think we do own our faces, but maybe just we didn't own like explicitly the copyright of our faces. Yeah. Why is this necessary? That's a good question. It's a legislative amendment to a copyright law and it's being brought forward by the Danish government in order to clamp down on the growing problem of deepfakes.
The idea is that this amendment will give people in Denmark a legal framework whereby they can demand that online platforms remove content that is imitating their voice or their likeness without their consent. And what kind of content are we talking about here? Well, a deepfake is any piece of content that realistically imitates a real person.
It can be a photo, a video, but it can also be audio only. Remember that time when producer Wojciech got the AI machine to imitate my voice on the podcast last year and create a happy ending in my absence, even though I was out of all internet range in the Scottish Highlands?
KATZ LASZLO:
That was very strange.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That was a deepfake, although I must admit I did actually consent to that deepfake and Wojciech was honest about it on the show. So in that case, I wouldn't have asked the Danish government to send the police over to the non-existent Europeans podcast offices. Deepfakes are often used to make people in the public eye seem to say things that they would never say.
The technology has been advancing rapidly and the regulation has not quite caught up in most of the world yet. And perhaps it's an obvious thing to say, but deepfake content can threaten the functioning of our democracies by spreading incredibly realistic disinformation. And there is actually a clear example of this from Denmark, where last year, the populist Danish People's Party helped circulate a deepfake video of Prime Minister Mette Friedrichsen giving a fake press conference in which an AI generated imitation of her announced the cancellation of major holidays like Christmas and Easter.
KATZ LASZLO:
Oh my God, that's such weird and also bold political campaigning. I don't even know what to make of that. When it comes to these deepfakes of politicians, I get the danger, but shouldn't there also be an opportunity to satirise politicians? Like, is there a way to ban the dangerous part but still be allowed to imitate their likeness and voices for political parody?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And that is why in this legislative amendment, there is in fact a provision to allow people to create deepfakes if they are doing it for satirical purposes. Not quite sure how they're going to decide what counts as satirical or not. That's going to be a tricky one for some courts. But yeah, maybe because of this satirical provision, it's become quite a popular legislative plan.
According to a report in the Guardian, nine in 10 members of the Danish parliament are behind this plan. So huge majority it's going to have. It just has enormous cross-party support and it's therefore very likely to become law in the autumn. I'm realising now that this is actually one of those rare Good Weeks that's actually pretty unequivocally good news for once. I think it's a summer miracle.
KATZ LASZLO:
No, I was just thinking the same. I was like, what is this strange feeling?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I think it's just a pure Good Week. I failed all year up to now, but finally I'm getting it just before the summer break.
Anyway, the Danish culture minister Jakob Engelschmidt is also hoping to sell this innovative legislative idea to other countries. I say sell, but I don't think he's actually trying to make money from it. He has quite a good platform for sharing his ideas because as of this week, Denmark holds the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union.
This is that thing where each EU country has a turn at six months of steering the council meetings. I think almost all Europeans don't notice that this rotating presidency rotates.
KATZ LASZLO:
I agree.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
But it does give Engelschmidt and his government a chance to steer the agenda in these meetings a bit more. And he seems keen to share this innovative legislation with his colleagues in the rest of the EU. Engelschmidt actually said in a statement about this legislation, “I am extremely proud that we are now sending an unequivocal signal to all citizens that you have the right to your own body, your own voice and your own facial features. In a time when technology has overtaken legislation, I am pleased that so many of the parties of the Danish parliament will help protect artists and ordinary people from digital identity theft, which can now be done with just a few clicks from a screen.” He goes on to say that we are getting to a point when it's going to be virtually impossible to tell if a video is real or not. And yeah, I personally find that quite a scary Rubicon that we are crossing there.
KATZ LASZLO:
Yeah, I think one of the scariest parts of this for me is the enormous problem of deepfake pornography and how much it can ruin people's lives, especially teenagers like, oh my God, I just can't even imagine what it's like to be a teenager with this technology. Does this legislative amendment actually address that enormous problem of deepfake pornography?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, that's something I was trying to find out. There is no explicit mention of deepfake pornography in the statements from Engel Schmidt and the other politicians who are supporting this amendment. This amendment actually focuses more on the danger of deepfakes for artists, for musicians, and also the threat of misinformation and manipulation.
But of course, there is also a huge problem, as you say, with deepfake pornography all around the world right now. AI is getting better and better by the day at creating realistic pornographic content with the faces of real human beings who have not consented to this content being created. It can be seriously disturbing and a traumatic violation if it happens to you. And depressingly, it probably comes as no surprise to you that the vast majority of the victims of deepfake pornography are women.
But no, this legislation is not focused on the problem of deepfake pornography because there is seemingly already legislation that protects victims of deepfake pornography in Denmark, fortunately. In fact, people who share non-consensual deepfake pornography in Denmark can be punished by up to six months in jail under their defamation laws.
So that's it. I'm giving good week to the people of Denmark who are probably at some point over the next year going to be a bit better protected from the risk of deepfakes than most other people in Europe. I quite like the idea actually of owning the copyright to my face. So I'm considering moving to Denmark.
KATZ LASZLO:
Don't go.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, I don't think I actually will. I've never been there.
KATZ LASZLO:
Really? It's so close.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And another random fact, I was reading the news last night and I saw that our own crown princess in the Netherlands, Amalia, she's just graduated and she did her graduation dissertation about EU law around AI deepfakes. So I was thinking we should continue this conversation with Princess Amalia as an expert on the show in a future week.
KATZ LASZLO:
Sounds perfect.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
The Europeans is an independent podcast and our association is a French non-profit association. We are part of this consortium of radio makers across Europe, Euranet Plus, and through them, we do get some funding for some part of the show, but it's nowhere near enough to continue bringing these episodes unless we are also able to secure support from our listeners. That's just how it is and probably how it's always going to be here at the Europeans. Therefore, we are so grateful to everyone who donates to the show via Patreon.com.
This week, we have a few new patrons to thank. They are Molly, Henrikus, Nele, and also Sarah for increasing her monthly pledge. Thank you all so much for helping to secure the future of this podcast and keeping this show on air.
If you think you might be able to help us out, please head to patreon.com/europeanspodcast and you'll see you can donate as little as three euros per month to help us out.
KATZ LASZLO:
Thank you, Patreons.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
If you can't afford to help us out financially at the moment, please consider leaving us a review or a rating on your podcast platform of choice or tell some friends about us. Podcasts are most likely to grow via word of mouth. So please be that mouth and shout about us or whisper if you'd prefer.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Time to head to Budapest and to unpick what happened there last weekend. This is the segment of the show that is brought to you in collaboration with our radio partners at Euranet Plus. And this week, it's also brought to you in collaboration with my marital partner, who I sent to Budapest as my intern.
So Budapest Pride, you've probably seen the images from last weekend's Pride March. The organizers think something like 200,000 people ended up attending, making it by far the biggest Pride March in Hungarian history. And this is despite the fact that the march was officially banned by the Hungarian government. Viktor Orbán tried his damnedest to shut the march down, to stop LGBTQ+ people taking to the street and celebrating their rights and their freedom. But it didn't work.
KATZ LASZLO:
It didn't. It was so moving to watch. And it was such a different outcome than what happened in the Istanbul Pride, which also took place last weekend and was also banned. But in Turkey, there was a much stricter clampdown. The Turkish police arrested at least 50 people.
And yeah, and it's quite scary to see because Istanbul Pride used to be something quite joyful that thousands of people went to, but it's been banned since 2015 by the conservative government. And this year, there are all these videos of police chasing people down. And yeah, I'm not sure whether it makes me more sad or angry, but it feels all the more important to talk about this huge turnout of solidarity in Budapest after 15 years of Orbán's government and a celebration of solidarity.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, it does feel like this huge historical moment and potentially maybe a turning point in Hungary. I really wanted to be there myself, but I couldn't. But yeah, my husband, Thomas Lamers, theatre maker and philosopher, he did make it and you, Katz, actually used to work with him too. So it's a big old reunion here.
So before we speak to our guest, Krisztián Marton, I thought it was worth catching up with Thomas to hear about what he experienced. Hi, Thomas. Thanks for joining us today and sharing this microphone with me.
KATZ LASZLO:
Hi, Thomas.
THOMAS LAMER:
Hey, Katz. Hey, Dom. It's really nice to be back. Thank you for having me.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, thank you so much for joining us today, Thomas. I was wondering, maybe you could start by quickly explaining why you decided to go to Budapest Pride.
THOMAS LAMER:
Yeah, so I've kind of accidentally become a Budapest watcher in the last 10 years or so because of my theatre projects. I just met some amazing people and did some amazing projects there and got very interested in the decline of democracy in that part of the world. And yeah, I felt as soon as I heard that Orbán was trying to ban this, and I know so many queer people there, people trying to stand up for civil liberties, that I had to go. So it was actually the ban that made me decide to go.
Also, I saw my very first drag show ever in a basement in Budapest when I was 17. So that was quite memorable as well.
KATZ LASZLO:
A historical moment.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And you also, this time, actually came with some money in your pocket. You were fundraising in the Netherlands to try and help people pay these fines that they are still expected to maybe get after the march. The government are using facial recognition software to identify the Hungarians who are marching and could get fines of up to 500 euros.
THOMAS LAMER:
Yeah, so full disclosure, I didn't just go as an intern for the Europeans podcast. I was there as an activist myself to show solidarity. And I'd set up a spontaneous fundraiser and I raised a couple of thousand euros in the Netherlands to help pay towards Hungarians getting those fines.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah. And you were the best husband a podcaster could hope for. You took a microphone with you and collected some sounds for us, right?
THOMAS LAMER:
I did, yes.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And I thought maybe we could start by hearing a bit about this reception you attended the night before the march on Friday night.
THOMAS LAMER:
Yeah, so we were invited by the mayor of Budapest to a reception of international guests at the Pride. And it was full of members of European Parliament. A European commissioner was there. There were lots of MPs, especially from the Netherlands and ministers from various European countries, a handful of mayors like our mayor of Amsterdam and the mayor of Athens. And then I was walking through the crowds with my microphone.
KATZ LASZLO:
Sounds very fancy. What was the atmosphere like?
THOMAS LAMER:
Yeah, it was very exciting, but it was also tense because nobody really knew what was going to happen the next day. There was real concern about the safety of those of us who were going to march. And actually, here's a clip of the president of Budapest Pride, Victoria Radvanić.
[CLIP:]
And we don't know how tomorrow's going to look like. And I'm just going to be very frank with you. I need you to do whatever you can do in your power in the next few hours to ensure that the police is protecting the march tomorrow. Please use your power, the power divested in you by the people of this European Union and your constituents to ensure that they can march safely and securely.
THOMAS LAMER:
So, yeah, you can really hear that it was by no means certain that things would go smoothly.
And all of us were taking a risk by marching, but the organizers themselves have taken on a much bigger risk. And I was very moved when I heard Victoria talk about her own personal vulnerability in having organized this march.
[CLIP:]
And I want to ask you to do everything in your power to ensure that the police will not take me in the middle of the night from my wife and from my three children in the next couple of hours.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I can't imagine being in that situation, it's so brave.
KATZ LASZLO:
Yeah, the stakes and just what pushes you that it's so important that you take the risk anyway.
THOMAS LAMER:
Yeah. Victoria also used the opportunity to deliver a petition to the European Commissioner for Equality who is present at the event. And it was a petition that asked the commission to protect Budapest pride. She asked Commissioner Haja Labib to be their voice in the commission to take these signatures back to Brussels. Victoria said, “we are not asking for tweets, we're not asking for videos, we're asking for concrete legal action,” because Ursula von der Leyen had only uploaded a video saying we support pride. And Commissioner Labib actually sounded like she took this request really seriously. She kept her speech short, saying the time for words is over. She said, I agree with everything that was said. What we need now is action.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, we'll be watching and let's hope there is some action. After these speeches, I believe you got to talk to a few of these important people in attendance, right?
THOMAS LAMER:
Yeah, it's amazing what holding a microphone can do for access to very important people. I first walked up to Yolanda Díaz-Pérez, Deputy Prime Minister of Spain. And I was really amazed by her. She was such a wonderful and human and empathetic cheerleader for pride and human rights. And she framed this pride ban as an international human rights issue that the European Commission must deal with.
KATZ LASZLO:
Yeah, I hear that Yolanda is your new best friend now.
THOMAS LAMER:
Yeah, I may be a little bit in love. Yes, indeed.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Awkward for your new BFF that her government is on the ropes due to a corruption scandal, but let's stick with Budapest. Keep going. Who did you speak to next?
THOMAS LAMER:
Yeah, I'm sure that's a story for another time. I then spoke to our very own mayor of Amsterdam, the green-left politician Femke Halsema. And she first wanted to know why you weren't there, Dominic, but I told her you were busy back in Amsterdam singing in the Opera House, which she accepted.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Thank you, Femke.
[CLIP:]
Queers all over the world are targeted, are suppressed, are intimidated. And I think the right to love whomever you want to love is so important that we always should stand side by side.
THOMAS LAMER:
And finally, I spoke to the mayor of Budapest himself, Gergely Karácsonyi, and I asked him what his wish for the march was. And he said he wished that it would be the biggest pride Budapest has ever seen, and it would be the greatest answer to the government's oppressive politics.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Did you speak to him in Hungarian, Thomas?
THOMAS LAMER:
No, no. I asked my question in English, and I did get some help with the Hungarian translation. But I did ask the Spanish deputy prime minister my question in Spanish, which probably sounded something like, why art thou her?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well done for trying.
KATZ LASZLO:
So the mayor wished that this would be the hugest pride that ever happened in Budapest. It actually happened, didn't it?
THOMAS LAMER:
Absolutely, it was at least four times as big as the previous biggest Pride parade in Budapest. And it was incredible. And on the day I met so many regular people too, who were full of energy and excitement and purpose.
And it was so much the opposite of the conversation that I've been having in the last 10 years with lots of people. I was moved by what they had to say and I had my microphone on me. So do you want to hear what I experienced?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yes, please.
[CLIP: THOMAS LAMER:]
We'd love to. Why are you here today?
[CLIP: PRIDE ATTENDEE 1:]
Because I just must be here. The whole situation now is just terrible and I really would like to be on the other side of the whole thing.
[CLIP: THOMAS LAMER:]
And what is the day like? What are you experiencing?
[CLIP: PRIDE ATTENDEE 1:]
It's just amazing. I just thought that there will be a lot of people, but I never dreamt of such a big crowd.
[CLIP: THOMAS LAMER:]
Why are you here today?
[CLIP: PRIDE ATTENDEE 2:]
I'm here today because I do not support what the government has been doing in the past 15 years. I actually wouldn't have come to Pride today, but since it's banned, I think it's political again, so it makes sense to be here.
[CLIP: THOMAS LAMER:]
What are you experiencing today?
[CLIP: PRIDE ATTENDEE 3:]
A huge turnout, like so many people. I've never seen this many people before in a Budapest Pride, which is very nice. But I guess so many international visitors like you.
[CLIP: THOMAS LAMER:]
And do you feel like there's support from civil society or from the rest of Europe?
[CLIP: PRIDE ATTENDEE 3:]
I was on Grindr today and I met so many people from Western Europe, so I guess that counts as support from Western Europe.
[CLIP: THOMAS LAMER:] And what are you seeing around you? How are you experiencing the day?
[CLIP: PRIDE ATTENDEE 4:]
Probably this is the best day that I ever had in probably like five years or so. And I'm really proud to be here and I'm really happy that I've came here and I experienced it because, oh my God.
[CLIP: THOMAS LAMER:]
Thanks so much. Happy Pride.
[CLIP: PRIDE ATTENDEE 4:]
Happy Pride. Have a nice day.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, I wasn't there, but I'm tearing up over here just listening to the excitement and the strength of feeling I can hear and the energy. Yeah, even more jealous that I wasn't there.
KATZ LASZLO:
Yeah, huge goosebumps over here.
THOMAS LAMER:
It was really an amazing event. It was just so big that if you didn't come with your friends, there was no way that you were going to find them. So I even didn't try. But the next day I got together with some of my friends that I hadn't been able to find on the day itself to reflect together because it felt like such a momentous event. And it's really important to not understate how much of a turning point it feels like for so many Hungarians and that the queer movement could lead the way to democratic reform. That's just amazing if that would happen.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Love the queers leading the way again, saving democracy for all of us. Once again. You're welcome.
KATZ LASZLO:
Thanks, Dominic.
THOMAS LAMER:
I spoke to one Hungarian friend who saw someone at the march with extreme-right symbols on their t-shirt in the march itself. So marching, not as part of one of these miniscule counter protests. And my friend went up to him and asked why he was marching along with pride if he had these extreme right views. And he said, well, if they stop you from protesting, they can also stop me protesting. So this one guy was obviously an outlier, but it also gives an idea of how wide ranging the opposition to Orbán is right now.
I also spoke to a friend who pays very close attention to the decline of democracy in her country. I don't think she'd mind me describing her as someone who doesn't often feel like a beacon of hope when it's about Hungary. She was a teenager in 1989 and there was this huge demo that became a symbol of the transition towards democracy that she remembers attending with her parents. And she said that this march, last Saturday in 2025, she experienced that same feeling of the possibility of change that she'd felt when she was a teenager in 89.
And I was so surprised to hear her, of all people, say that she was proud to be a Hungarian.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Wow.
KATZ LASZLO:
God, that gives me extra goosebumps because my Hungarian grandfather left Hungary in the 40s because of the government. And he just felt so hopeless about the country his entire life. And he actually died in 1989, a couple of months before that big protest.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Wow.
THOMAS LAMER:
Wow. Yeah. I also saw an 85 year old man or something marching in the heat. He had an A4 paper strapped around his chest saying, 1956, Russians go home. And it was really, I felt like he had been part of those protests and was now walking around here. Really, it was really an historical event.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, thank you, Thomas, so much for being our Budapest Pride correspondent, you really went above and beyond. Now it's time for us to interview someone else, someone who's become actually a bit of a spokesperson for the Hungarian LGBTQ plus communities in recent weeks. Krisztián Marton is a writer who wrote a celebrated Hungarian novel called Crybaby that was shortlisted for the Margó Prize for debut fiction. It's a book that's partly based on his own life and his experiences as a mixed-race gay Hungarian man. We spoke to him very early on Monday morning, just as the glitter was starting to settle from Budapest Pride.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Hello, Krisztián, thank you so much for joining us today at this rather early hour in the morning. I imagine you've had quite a busy weekend behind you. So we really appreciate you taking the time. I first wanted to ask you, what was it like standing there amongst the estimated 200-ish thousand people at Pride in Budapest on Saturday?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
Hey, thanks for having me. It was honestly awesome. Incredible. Going to the march, I felt very anxious, to be honest, I didn't know what to expect. I was so worried that there might be a clash because some of the far right parties organized a protest before the march gathering spot. I was like, I hope nothing bad is going to happen and people will have a great time. And it just turned out even better than I ever imagined.
KATZ LASZLO:
Christian, as you said, there were a lot of unknowns about how this march would go down. Also how the police would act, how the counter protesters would act. How did you prepare for this march? How did you deal with the potential risk of it?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
I felt very anxious, as I said, but I just didn't know what to expect. So I was like, let's go there as many as we can and just deal with the consequences later. It didn't even cross my mind that I wouldn't go because of the police. I didn't expect the police to act violently or anything like that, but I thought that they might be fining people randomly, and that didn't happen. So many NGOs made this checklist on how to act if the police is trying to fine you. So you can't accept the fine in person right there, but challenge it later. So that was our plan.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
There is still the possibility that you and the people you marched with will be fined, right? Because the government has said it's going to use facial recognition technology to identify the marchers and fine them up to 500 euros. Was this something that you were discussing with your friends like in preparation to go into the march? And for some people, was that a reason for not marching?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
No, I personally don't know anyone who stayed at home because of the fine or the potential fine. No, we were discussing it, of course. But as I said, we knew that there are legal options to challenge that fine. So we just wanted to, you know, stay updated and be ready.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
There were also a lot of international visitors to Pride this year, like Greta Thunberg was there, 70-ish members of the European Parliament. Did that international attention and support feel important to you? Did that make you feel any safer?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
Yeah, that's why I'm doing these interviews, to be honest, to keep the conversation alive, especially before the march, because I thought that it would help the movement and the march if international attention is hot on this topic. And it also gave me a sense of safety knowing that so many politicians would show up because that way the march has extra protection and safety from the police as well.
KATZ LASZLO:
That said, the response to Orbán's Pride ban from the European Commission has come under quite a lot of criticism for not being strong enough. The European Commission has not yet opened new legal proceedings against the Hungarian government since the Pride ban, but there are infringement proceedings going on against the Hungarian government currently. The EU Equality Commissioner, Hadje Lahabib, was in Budapest in support of the Pride, but she didn't actually go to the march. How do you look at the response of the European Commission to the Pride ban?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
I mean, it's nice. I could say it's not strong enough, but what can they do? The EU is not designed to regulate bad boys. It's based on the assumption that members recognize and appreciate their mutually beneficial interactions and interests.
So all these horrible laws, of course, eventually be turned back by the European Court. But until then, they are in effect. I think many of us are done waiting for the EU to solve this issue for us, because we have to do this on our own.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I saw that you've said that growing up in the 90s, you felt hopeful about Hungary's future. What's it been like to lose some of that hope? And what's it like being a gay man in Hungary in 2025?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
I don't know. It's so complex, because Saturday's Pride is an evidence of Hungarian society being so much more accepting towards us than the government wants us to believe. And I always had the same feeling. I'm always surprised that they keep trying to reuse this anti-queer rhetoric, because it doesn't work. It never did. Whenever they make any of these laws, there's always backlash from society. So I don't even know why they're doing this. I don't think it's to cater to their voters. I think it's more about generating noise, because the country is about to collapse economically. Our healthcare system is insane. Our education system is insane. And they finally have a new challenger who actually has a shot of winning next year's election. So I think it's just noise.
I don't know. I know it sounds really bad, because I'm not saying these aren't actual issues. I think why it's devilish of them to do this is because we obviously have to, you know, fight for this and focus our attention on these human rights violations. But at the same time, while we're doing this, we can't focus on the country collapsing.
KATZ LASZLO:
On the other hand, it does have impact on people's lives. The Pride ban and many of the other homophobic bans in Hungary are often explained as being to protect the children. And I'm wondering what you think the impact of these bans are on queer children?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
Yeah, I think it's horrible. Growing up—I‘m 35 years old. So I grew up in the early 2000s, like I was a teenager in the 2000s. And, you know, like back then, I think even globally, queer representation was quite limited. And it always focused on, you know, like the tragedy of it and the sin and, I don't know, like repercussions. And these days, at least, teens have global access to representation that does justice for them. But here in Hungary, like if I was a queer teenager right now in Hungary, it would make me really confused and scared of seeing the world being so open towards people like me. And in my country, people are criminalising entertainment that would help find me solace and shelter.
KATZ LASZLO:
You wrote a book about your life as a gay man and a person of colour in Hungary. And it's banned in any bookshop within 200 metres of a church or a school.
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
Yeah.
KATZ LASZLO:
And, of course, we can talk about the politics of that or the impact on queer children growing up. But I'm wondering, what does that feel like for you?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
That's the thing about living in Hungary, like you're so used to, you know, your rights being chipped away. So, you know, this didn't just happen overnight. Every year, they just like kept raising the stakes or just like pushing your boundaries. So by the time it happened, I wasn't shocked.
I was like, oh, of course. Okay. What's next? How to work around this? It felt, obviously, it felt bad, especially since, you know, it was quite well received and got nominated for a prize. And even this book festival that is the celebration of this prize, my book, even though it was nominated, it got removed from the shelves. And that felt really bad.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That must be awful. But as you say, you are still going out there, you are doing all these interviews, and you are becoming a kind of spokesperson for Hungary's LGBTQ+ community at the moment. And I wanted to know, is that a role that you're happy to have?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
I never would have thought that I would find myself in this position. And that's not something that I aspire to. And that's also because I think if you have like visible outsider-ness, or you're part of any minority groups, everything you do is, society puts you in an activist role, whether you want it or not. And I am happy to do this. And I hope it helps.
It comes with a lot of anxiety. I was, especially before the Pride, doing all these foreign interviews. I, at one moment, I was actually scared of, who knows, like, maybe this is going too far. Like maybe it could have repercussions or whatever. And I even bailed out for like 10 minutes from an interview. And then I came to my senses and I'm like, no, this is exactly what they want for us to censor ourselves.
And actually, in many of these laws, the wording is very murky. So it's not exactly described what they mean by the promotion or the depiction of gender diversity and homosexuality in literature or art or movies. So they rely on people's fear of being fined or whatever. And they hope that they will censor themselves. And many bookstores do that as well.
KATZ LASZLO:
When you read the international press, are there things about Hungary and what's going on around you that you wish people knew or better understood? Like, do you feel like people outside of Hungary understand what's happening?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
I don't know. I think it's such a complex thing to, you know, like really understand what's going on in a foreign country.
What I didn't want is that for this to be used as like a form of thrill, you know, for foreigners to watch something and be thrilled like, oh my God, this is so bad. This could never happen to us. We're so lucky or whatever.
Because I think the biggest takeaway from this is that this can happen anywhere. And it didn't just happen to us because we're so unlucky. And yeah, to guard your rights closer and don't sit back because what happened here was that the country was initially like so starved for change 15 years ago. And we gave total power to Orbán. And it just got dark in a few years. And we protested and we spoke up and nothing really mattered.
So many of us felt eventually so burnt out and hopeless that we just withdrew from this space completely. And of course, we still voted and we still protested here and there. But we felt defeated.
And this Pride like what happened this spring, I think was a turning point for us. It definitely was a wake up call for me that no, no, no, you can still do something. You have to try and you have to fight and you have to speak up.
And I think many people felt like this. And that's why 200+ thousand people showed up this past Saturday.
KATZ LASZLO:
I got goosebumps when you described 15 years of apathy and then 200,000 people on the streets. I can't imagine what that feels like, this wake up call. And I'm wondering, okay, you're awake now. What's next for you?
KRISZTIÁN MARTON:
I think that we just, we have to learn thinking about this kind of political activism as a regular thing, like a continuous thing that we do, not just as a diet or something like that. Even if Peter Magyar wins next year's elections and the Orbán regime goes, we still have to be present in this space in order to avoid this happening again. Because how he rises now is very similar to what Orbán did 15 years ago.
So, you know, we have to be careful and we have to be active. We can never go back to just like sitting on the couch and being depressed about political changes and not trying to challenge them.
[MUSIC]
KATZ LASZLO:
Oh, thank you so much to Krisztián Marton for talking to us. I'm so glad that things went far better at this Pride March than people could have dreamed or feared. I highly recommend you go and check out Krisztián's social media. He's done a bunch of really, really moving interviews recently, including our very own.
You can find him @_martonkrisztian. I'll include it in the show notes because it's Hungarian spelling, which is very difficult. And if you want to donate to the fund that Thomas organised, in case people do get fined, there will also be a link for that.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Time to talk about some cultural delights from Europe. What have you been enjoying this week, Katz?
KATZ LASZLO:
Yeah, so last weekend, it was midsummer and there's a huge history of midsummer celebrations in Europe. And to honour that, there's a DJ on the BBC called Zakia Sewell, who does a weekly show called Dreamtime. And I loved the episode dedicated to solstice, to summer solstice.
So Zakia is actually writing a book about folklore called Finding Albion, inspired by a podcast series that she made called My Albion, and that I maybe perhaps recommended before. I'm not sure. But anyway, something I think that is cool is that one of the motivations for her to write this book is that she said she always felt a bit weird about how she should feel about Britishness because of the relation to nationalist politics. And also, it's just so loudly associated with colonialism that it makes it all feel really complicated. And she's got English heritage, Welsh heritage, Caribbean heritage. And so that adds to this whole cocktail of feelings. But she does also feel a deep connection to the land and wanted to find a positive place to put that.
And so she went all the way back to further back than Christianity, back to when Britain was called Albion. And so all of those years of research for her book and her series is very much feelable in this two hour musical set. And it was just filled with folkloric musicians from all over Europe and sprinkled with all kinds of fun things about our pagan history. There will be a link in the show notes.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Sounds great.
KATZ LASZLO:
How about you, Dominic? What have you been consuming?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, I actually have a European cultural tip that was suggested by a listener who was at the European Youth Event a few weeks ago. The European Youth Event is an event that takes place every two years at the European Parliament. And thousands of young people get together to debate, to share ideas, to inspire each other and meet members of the European Parliament who are in attendance. In the evenings, there are apparently concerts and gigs when the members of the European Parliament mingle with the young people. And our listener wrote in to recommend the winning band of the European Emerging Bands Contest who were performing one of those nights at the European Youth Event.
They are an all-female Ukrainian rock band of teenagers. There are five of them. The band is called the Sixsters, and they have been in this band since they were between the ages of seven and 10. And our listener said that they turned the crowd wild by showcasing they have everything a punk-rock band needs to have with more raw energy than he ever expected to see in such a context. If that sounds like your jam, then check out the Sixsters wherever you listen to your music.
KATZ LASZLO:
I definitely will.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Time for a quick happy ending to round off the show. And I'm taking us to the French Riviera for some cheering news today. Starting on January the 1st, 2026, Cannes will only welcome cruise ships with fewer than 1000 passengers, ensuring fewer boats and less crowding in its iconic harbour. The city will also cap total disembarkations at 6000 people per day, which will help to preserve the city's charm and help to protect residents from the risks of over tourism.
It's a piece of regulation that follows the examples of cities like Venice, Barcelona and Amsterdam who have all recently brought in regulation to limit or ban certain types of cruise ships from entering their city ports. And yeah, it's something that comes from the city council in Cannes. And I think it seems like it's doing quite a good job of balancing the economic benefits of visitors with the environmental and societal downsides to these cruise ships. And it will come as no surprise to you that environmentalists are really celebrating this decision because cruise ships are just so bad for the environment. I read in one article that some of the biggest cruise ships can pollute as much sulphur dioxide as 30,000 cars. So one ship.
KATZ LASZLO:
Holy shit.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, it's really insane. So, happy residents of Cannes, human and non-human. Hooray.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That's all we've got time for this week. It is time for us to have a bit of a summer break. So we'll be out of your feeds for a few weeks. I hope you don't miss us too much. If you do, you can check out what we're getting up to on Instagram, on Blue Sky, on Mastodon and on YouTube.
KATZ LASZLO:
And you can even send us an email because I'll be working away.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, that's true. Some of us are not going on holiday quite yet. Thank you, Katz, for holding down the fort. hello@europeanspodcast.com.
This week's episode was produced by Morgan Childs and Wojciech Oleksiak. Thank you both.
KATZ LASZLO:
Thank you so much.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
See you all in August. Viszlát!
KATZ LASZLO:
Doei!
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