Pavarotti is trapped in an ice rink
It’s that time of year when we gather together with friends from near and far, indulge in seasonal treats, and take a lighthearted look at the stories that are rounding out these past 12 wild months. It’s our annual Christmas extravaganza (🎄🎁🧑🎄✨ etc)! And in case you weren’t able to attend the party live over Zoom, not to worry – there’s plenty of revelry to be had in this episode.
This week we discuss two of the lighter news items to cross our messy Q4 desks: the fact that Denmark’s national postal service, PostNord, will soon cease to send letters or postcards, and the rather awkward saga surrounding a statue of opera legend Luciano Pavarotti that has been encased in an ice rink. Then we catch up with Jim Barne, a musician who made his name composing the theme music for a little podcast called The Europeans (wink, blush) and has just opened a smash-hit Broadway show, Two Strangers (Carry A Cake Across New York). Jim and his Two Strangers co-creator, Kit Buchan, are here to answer a burning question of Dominic’s: what is it, exactly, that makes Christmas music so Christmasy?
In the spirit of the holidays, here’s something a little more serious: sometimes it’s hard to believe that an independent podcast like ours has been able to find so many wonderful listeners across the world who have made it possible for us to keep going and growing over the years. You can hear a bit about how far we’ve come over the course of 2025 in this episode. But suffice to say, your generosity is an enormous gift that we don’t take lightly. Thank you.
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KATY LEE:
Welcome to the Europeans. It is the last podcast of the year and everything's fine. Everything's normal, except, oh wait, we are recording this in front of a live audience.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Panic! Yes, although maybe live makes it sound more fancy than it is. We're still recording from our bedrooms. But there are lots of lovely Patreon supporters watching us do that live over Zoom because it's become an annual tradition, our festive end of year episode.
KATY LEE:
Hi guys.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Hi everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. It's very nice to have you all here watching us move our mouths.
KATY LEE:
Oh, that's a weird way of putting it. But yes, it is so nice to see everyone's faces and see all the different places where people are. It's very cool. And we're also here with the wonderful producers of the Europeans. Hi, Wojciech, Katz and Morgan. And you come bearing snacks, I think. Wojciech, what are you munching on?
WOJCIECH OLEKSIAK:
As usually I'm drinking a winter tea. And this time I have to admit there's a bit of liquor in there because I had a very, very greasy dinner and I'm just helping digest this bomb of calories.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Is that a thing? Does liquor help you digest?
KATY LEE:
It’s going to make things worse.
WOJCIECH OLEKSIAK:
Yeah. Oh, also shout out to Lithuanians. It's a Lithuanian liquor. It's called Suktinis.
KATY LEE:
Oh, okay. Have to try that one.
WOJCIECH OLEKSIAK:
Super strong. Yeah. But I'm micro-dosing. So I'm super, you know, I'm able to do my job.
KATY LEE:
I thought you said macro-dosing, which would make for an interesting podcast.
WOJCIECH OLEKSIAK:
That's for later.
KATY LEE:
Katz, what have you got? You normally have a kaki fruit. Have you gone for something different this year?
KATZ LASZLO:
They're in my kitchen, but I did something more inventive.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Is that one of those Yule logs from Barcelona?
KATZ LASZLO:
So here is an advent calendar with the Spanish log. This is an amazing advent calendar with this Catalan log that you have to smack. And the tradition goes that it is filled with all the presents and then you hit it with sticks and then it shits your presents out.
KATY LEE:
Yes. It's a shitting log. How festive.
KATZ LASZLO:
But I've already eaten my chocolate of the day, so there's nothing here for me.
KATY LEE:
That's a lovely snack. Morgan, what have you got?
MORGAN CHILDS:
So I live in the part of the world where we eat fish at Christmas time. It's, carp is what they eat in the Czech Republic. In my case, I put carp in my shopping cart before I had to just change my mind at the very last minute because there's nothing I like about carp. And honestly, that's not just me. I think most of the Czechs that I know and am friends with also decline to eat carp. But anyway, I have a bowl of à la carp style salmon next to me. And I also have a cat in the corner over here looking on with great interest.
KATY LEE:
That’s going to be difficult to manage during this recording, I reckon. Dominic, what have you got?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I have some Stollen.
KATY LEE:
Classic.
DOMINIC:
Classic. I think I probably had that last year as well.
KATY LEE:
Quite heavy. I'm wondering how your energy levels are going to be.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, but it's a small one. It's actually, it was called a kind of stolletje or something. You know, Dutch people put a tje at the end of everything to make it small. What have you got, Katy?
KATY LEE:
Got some chocolate euros. And this is a sign of how bad the cost of living crisis is and how out of control inflation is getting: This one is a 500 euro note. Like, I’m used to two euro chocolate coins. A 500 note—have you ever seen that before?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That’s incredible. I mean, forget about the digital euro. Let's make the chocolate euro a thing.
KATY LEE:
That’s a bad idea. Anyway, we should probably get on with the actual podcast. Do try to keep your munching and crunching to a minimum, everyone. Let's start this thing. What's coming up, Dominic?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, we've got quite a jolly show for you today, you'll be happy to hear. We're giving ourselves a bit of a break from talking about all the serious things happening in the world. So yeah, a relatively light hearted Good Week, Bad Week coming up.
And later on in the show, we're going to be talking to two Europeans who are taking Broadway by storm at the moment with their smash hit musical Two Strangers (Carry a Cake Across New York). We'll be joined by the writing duo Kit Buchan and Jim Barne. And now you might recognise that second name from this very show because Jim Barne's other great professional achievement is being the composer of our jingles.
We are so pleased that Kit and Jim have agreed to come on the show to talk to us about Christmas music, something that they, like me, are a bit obsessed with. We'll be speaking to Jim and Kit from where their show is currently playing in New York. We'll be chatting about everything from what it is that makes a song Christmassy to how Americans look at our European Christmas music and traditions and why at this time of year, we all suddenly feel the urge to sing together in groups. That's coming up later on in the show. But first, of course, it's time for Good Week, Bad Week.
Wojciech, hit the jingle.
[GOOD WEEK, BAD WEEK JINGLE]
KATY LEE:
So just to clarify, there is an awful lot going on in the world right now. But we have decided just for this one week to block it all out. This is the last episode of the year. We figured that we would bow out of 2025 on as cheerful a note as possible, given, you know, all of this. So this is a special festive edition of Good Week, Bad Week, and we're calling it Good Christmas, Bad Christmas, right?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yes. Other December-based festivals are also available in Europe, but Christmas has got the headline slot of the Europeans this year. And who are you giving Good Christmas to, Katy?
KATY LEE:
I'm going to say this Christmas is a good Christmas for collectors of Danish memorabilia. I'll get there in a second. Bear with me.
However, it is a very bittersweet Christmas for Danes who send Christmas cards, because this is the last Christmas ever when you will be able to send or receive a Christmas card via Denmark's National Postal Service, PostNord. You're not in fact going to be able to send any kind of card or letter via PostNord, because on December the 30th, this historic national postal service is going to stop delivering letters altogether for the first time in 400 years.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Wait, so Denmark is going to have a national postal service that doesn't send letters?
KATY LEE:
Yes. It is the first state postal service in Europe to do so. Like, it's pretty wild.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That is pretty wild. And presumably they've made this decision because hardly anyone sends letters anymore. I mean, actually, when was the last time you sent someone a letter or a Christmas card?
KATY LEE:
Yeah, I'm really not a Christmas card sender. Are you? I've never got one from you.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Oh, yeah, busted. No, I'm really not. I don't actually think I've ever as an adult sent a Christmas card via the post, which is something maybe shameful to admit. But I mean, people of my parents' generation still do.
Yeah, if I go to my parents' house, they have dozens and dozens of Christmas cards all around the house at Christmas.
KATY LEE:
Dozens? That's more friends that I have, like, let alone the number of people I know that would send me Christmas cards. I mean, I do use my post office in general pretty often to send like a physical letter, like maybe once every couple of months. I mean, famously, France is a fairly bureaucratic country. And most of the time you can do things digitally these days. But it is still semi-often that you need to send like a receipt for a doctor's appointment to Social Security or something like that.
But yeah, like a Christmas card or an actual letter. I mean, like, I think my mum wrote me a letter just to do something sweet about five years ago. And it was really charming. But by the time I got it, she'd already told me everything that was in the letter via WhatsApp. It's kind of pointless. But it was sweet. Like I still have it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That is sweet. My main use of the postal service here in the Netherlands is sending thank you postcards to our supporters on Patreon. So if you donate six euros or above per month, you get a handwritten postcard from one of us. And honestly, it's not only the only moment I really send post, but it's also basically the only moment in my life I use pen and paper. And I'm so out of shape with writing that I always end up having kind of repetitive strain entry after a few hours of postcard writing. Anyway, that was an unnecessary detour. What was the question I asked you?
KATY LEE:
You were asking me if Denmark's postal service is ending the delivery of letters because Danes don't send letters anymore. And yes, is the answer. Denmark is a super online country.
The UN has ranked it as the country with the best online government services in the world for four years in a row now. So there are some like admin things that are still being done by post in other countries that have been online for ages in Denmark. And in general, the sending of fewer and fewer cards and letters is a long term global trend.
You know, like there are so many things you can do these days digitally that you just couldn't back in the day, like signing a contract, sending scans of your documents. In Denmark, PostNord delivers 90% fewer letters than it did 25 years ago. And they finally decided to stop sending them altogether because they're actually making a loss on delivering them. Like the cost of handling them per letter has been going up and up.
Because if you think about it, like you've still got to send postal workers round all of these post boxes, collecting ever smaller numbers of letters, like there is a lot of labour involved in this. There was also a sharp drop in the number of Danes sending letters last year specifically, because it suddenly became a lot more expensive. The government got rid of a VAT exemption on letters. They also got rid of this legal obligation for postal companies to keep their prices very strictly affordable. So now it costs 29 kroner, which is about 3 euros 90, just to send a standard letter. Like I know Denmark is expensive generally, but that is quite a lot of money.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, that is a lot. So but just to be clear, the National Postal Service is not shutting down completely. They're just gonna stop delivering letters like they're still going to do parcels.
KATY LEE:
Yes, exactly. They will still be delivering parcels. And that is actually exactly why they're doing this. Because of course, the number of letters that we're sending around the world really may have been dropping for decades. But at the same time, we're sending more parcels than ever. Thank you, internet shopping. And that is why PostNord have decided to do this. They want to concentrate on just delivering parcels quickly and well.
And if you get rid of the whole part of the business that involves collecting these tiny little envelopes from postboxes all around the country, that allows you to focus more on getting all of that desperately needed stuff that we've bought on the internet delivered safely to people's homes.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So will it be literally impossible to send a letter in Denmark now? Like if you do want to send someone a Christmas card… I saw someone in the comments just suggested that maybe you should put your postcard in a box. Is that what you're gonna have to do?
KATY LEE:
I mean, I do love the idea that people are going to such extreme lengths just to feel the spirit of Christmas. But don't worry, it is not that drastic.
If you do want to send a letter or indeed a Christmas card next year, you will still be able to do that in Denmark. But you'll have to do it via a private company called Dao. And they're not going to have letterboxes on the street. They're going to have postboxes in shops, 1,500 of them nationwide.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That doesn't sound like very many.
KATY LEE:
Well, yeah, I don't think it is very many. And there has been some concern that all of these changes are going to adversely affect old people and especially people living in rural areas. Old people are, of course, the least digitised among us, the most likely to send letters. Dao, that's the company that's going to take over the letter deliveries, they have hit back at these criticisms. They're kind of a general stuff delivery company these days. But historically, their main job was delivering newspapers. So they've said that they've got a really good on the ground local network. They typically have been delivering letters faster than PostNord. And they're also offering a service where they can come and pick up a letter that you want to have delivered to someone else from your house.
And that is arguably actually better for, you know, maybe an old person with mobility issues than having to walk to the nearest postbox. But all of the old postboxes that used to be on the street, those are all going to be gone by the end of the year. Which brings me to Good Week.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I was wondering when you're going to get there. It doesn't sound like a Good Week. It just sounds like the government privatising their postal service or part of it.
KATY LEE
I'm getting there. Also, you forced me to do Good Week this week. It's a very restrictive format. It is a Good Christmas for people who like to collect Danish memorabilia. Because, guess what? You can now buy an iconic former Danish postbox.
And they really are kind of iconic, these postboxes. The current design has been around since 1876. They're bright red, they're very pleasingly designed.
PostNord is now setting the boxes off for charity, which I think is quite a nice feel good thing to come out of something that feels quite momentous in a way, you know, like humans have been sending paper letters for hundreds of years. But we all know that there is a nearly defunct technology. It's on the cusp of dying out.
This is the first country in Europe to take this step. It really does feel like the start of the end of an era. So to mark this very bittersweet moment, a thousand of the boxes went up for sale online on Monday and very quickly sold out.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Why didn't you tell me about the sale before?
KATY LEE:
Sorry, that would have been the perfect Christmas present. They were priced between 200 euros and about 270 euros, depending on what condition they were in.
And I think that's actually pretty good value for a little piece of history. Although I don't know, like, what would you actually do with it if you had it in your house, you know?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, presumably you get the key to like open and close it too.
KATY LEE:
Oh yeah, I suppose so.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
You could convert it into like a spice rack for your kitchen.
KATY LEE:
I like that.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Or like a medicine cabinet.
KATY LEE:
Oh, these are quite good ideas.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I actually really wish I got one.
KATY LEE:
I was thinking I would use it to leave like passive aggressive notes for my husband saying stuff like, please, can you wash that cup up? But he'd have to check the mailbox to get them. Anyway, the good news is if you didn't manage to get hold of one of these mailboxes that went on sale on Monday, don't worry, because you are still in with a chance.
Another 200 are being sold in January also for charity. But those ones are going to cost you a lot more than 200 bucks, I reckon, because those ones are being auctioned. And they include the mailboxes that used to hang at famous locations like Copenhagen Central Station. Some of them are also going to be decorated by Danish artists before they go on sale. So I do think they're going to be quite kind of coveted items, hopefully raising lots of money for Denmark's annual start of the year charity appeal. This year, the money is going to children in forgotten crises around the world, which feels like a very good cause.
Do you think you're going to bid for one now that you've kind of, the idea has been planted in your head?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I mean, I do really want one, but I don't think I've got any chance of being able to afford one if they're being auctioned up.
KATY LEE:
Well, you never know if you've been a very good boy this Christmas, Dominic, somebody might...
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Are you going to get me one as a present?
KATY LEE:
I wasn't going to suggest it was me. Maybe Wojciech. Anyway, who are you giving your Bad Christmas to?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I am giving Bad Christmas to the Italian town of Pesaro on Italy's eastern Adriatic coast. Pesaro is receiving the booby prize of Bad Christmas after an awkwardly placed ice rink in one of the town's squares upset the family of the late great opera singer Luciano Pavarotti.
KATY LEE:
Pavarotti, there's a blast from the past. I haven't heard that name in a while. Fun fact, Pavarotti is actually the most famous person I share a birthday with. So I've always felt this kind of weird connection with him despite knowing nothing about opera, as you know.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That's charming.
KATY LEE:
Sorry, back to the actual story. His family is upset about an ice rink. What is so upsetting about this ice rink?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So it's because the ice rink was erected in a position where a statue of Pavarotti also stands and poor old Pavarotti is now rather awkwardly partially submerged in the structure of the ice rink, up to his knees, in fact.
And it really was not done in a graceful way. Like they just cut some of the wooden boards around him pretty roughly. So Luciano is like currently sticking out at the side of the ice rink next to some really ugly perspex walls.
KATY LEE:
How did this happen? I have so many questions.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I mean, things actually went from bad to worse when the local mayor in early promotion for the ice rink suggested that skaters should give Pavarotti a high five as they skated past him.
The bronze statue has him in like an iconic operatic position with his arms outspread ready to be high-fived by a passing skater.
KATY LEE:
I mean, I don't think I'd be able to resist that if I was skating on that rink. Yeah, okay, I shouldn't really be laughing. You said his family are not pleased about this at all.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
No, they're definitely not pleased. Pavarotti died back in 2007. But his widow is very much still around Nicoletta Mantovani. She was much younger than him. So she's actually only in her mid 50s. Now she put out a statement in the local media saying she was disappointed, angry and upset. She described the ice rink as very ugly, which I have to agree with having seen some pictures. She also said that the ice rink was ridiculing his memory. So all in all, it's really not gone down well.
KATY LEE:
I’m just googling it now. It does look awful. And I mean, especially the mayor and he must be really regretting suggesting that people high five it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, this mayor, Andrea Bianchini, he definitely has his tail between his legs. He apologised and said that the local council had made a mistake. He said to the Italian paper Il Resto del Carlino, quote, there was no intention of disrespect.
I was assured that Pavarotti wouldn't be touched or incorporated into the ice rink floor.
KATY LEE:
That’s so specific.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
It is, isn't it? But I actually read a rather spicy interview in that same paper with a local councillor who has decided to resign from the council and from the Five Star Movement, one of the parties that supports the mayor's coalition in Pesaro. And she has a different story.
KATY LEE:
Sorry, she has resigned over this ice rink scandal?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
No, although it wasn't clear. The newspaper really did have to get clarity from her. But she says it's not because of the ice rink problem.
But she did leave with a parting shot at the mayor whom she formerly supported, saying that she herself had told the mayor that the rink was being built in a way that would be a problem for the statue and that he, according to her, didn't care.
KATY LEE:
I hate to say I told you so.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, but I mean, whoever is correct, this ice rink placement was clearly a massive screw up and the councillor claims that it could all have been avoided and the ice rink could have been placed in a position that wouldn't have interfered with Pavarotti's statue.
KATY LEE:
I mean, this does feel like a bad Christmas for this town. But I do wonder, like, this has presumably got quite a lot of publicity around it. Is the ice rink doing unexpectedly good business?
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Trust you to think about the potential financial benefit out of this mess up. But yeah, you do have a point. I read in the local media that a lot of people are flocking to this awkwardly semi submerged Luciano Pavarotti and taking selfies.
And yeah, whilst I respect that this saga has been experienced as disrespectful and humiliating for the family, I noticed that reading this story has also reminded me that I should go and listen to Pavarotti again. So I hope like he finds a bit of a new audience or a revived audience because he was incredible. They really don't like that anymore.
KATY LEE:
Was he?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah.
KATY LEE:
Because he's like the only opera singer – like, anyone who was like a child in the 90s was probably vaguely aware of this, like, man with a beard who was like really good at singing. And I don't know any other opera singers apart from you.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, it's one of those examples where the most famous person in a field is actually also the best.
KATY LEE:
Yeah.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And I find that quite lovely. Actually, he I mean, he really was the voice of a generation. There haven't been many tenors that have surpassed him. I don't think there's been anyone as good as him since then. And who knows, maybe not before then either.
But yeah, going back to your question about financial benefit. The people who are running the ice rink did say in local media that there was some kind of quote unquote Pavarotti effect helping them sell tickets, but that it was actually already fading. So I don't think they're making their millions from this. I should say that they have made some improvements to how Pavarotti is presented in his semi submerged perspex frame since the story went viral online. And there was a nice quote in another Italian outlet, Corriere Adriatico, from Pavarotti's longtime personal assistant, Edwin Tinocho: He played down the scandal saying the maestro seeing where it was placed would have had a good laugh. Remembering that after all, his best part was from the chest up.
KATY LEE:
I mean, he did have this like very impressive barrel chest, right?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
He really did. Yeah. Before we move on, can I tell you my favourite piece of Pavarotti trivia?
KATY LEE:
I love that you have a favourite piece, but yeah, go on.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, so Pavarotti, one of the greatest singers to have ever lived, maybe the best tenor of the last hundred years. He was a childhood friend of one of the other greatest singers of the past hundred years, the soprano Mirella Freni.
They were born in the same year, in the same city, the city of Modena. And their mothers both worked in the same cigarette factory. They sung together as children, they stayed close as they grew up, and later at the very peak of their careers, they went on to perform together on the world's biggest opera stages.
So I find it really charming, but there's this weird detail that really gets me. Pavarotti and Freni claim they were fed by the same wet nurse at the cigarette factory.
KATY LEE:
They were breastfed by the same woman?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah.
KATY LEE:
Whaaat?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I don't want to claim that they got their voices from her breast milk.
KATY LEE:
I mean, it's a strange coincidence.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I just find it quite magical that these two voices that would come to define opera for generations were literally nourished by the same woman.
KATY LEE:
Wow.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Although, as Freni once said in an interview, you can see who got all the milk.
KATY LEE:
That’s mean.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
It is mean.
That was Good Week, Bad Week. Hit the jingle, Wojciech.
[GOOD WEEK, BAD WEEK OUTRO JINGLE]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And now it's time for the part of the show in which we like to talk about the listeners who are supporting us and keeping the show running. Wojciech just loves doing this segment. So we decided to give him the special honour of thanking all these people who are tuning in live. It has an extra weight to it when you can actually see some of these supporters looking back at you on Zoom. So go for it, Wojciech. The floor is yours.
WOJCIECH OLEKSIAK:
Thank you. I'm truly honoured.
So, welcome to a special Christmas edition of the Begging Segment.
On this very festive occasion, you know, I'd like to take a moment to thank you all from the bottom of our hearts for being here, for listening to the show, and actually for being the one and only reason this show, having weathered many storms, still exists. And we can tell you that it will certainly exist for at least one more year. So thank you, truly. It's really nice to say it looking at you all right now.
Basically, the way we think about our operations is we consider you, the people who support us, our employers, the best employers in the world, actually. And I'm really happy to tell you exactly what do we do with the money you gave us and to give you a very quick glimpse into the state of the show. So now I'm going to put my business manager hat on.
So first of all, I wanted to tell you that your donations made up for 43% of everything we spent this year. And this is a huge irreplaceable chunk. Without this chunk, without us being able to provide this money, for example, for a grant we’re operating, we would just never be able to take the grant and basically operate. So really, it all goes out to you.
Also it was a record year in a lot of ways. We produced a record number of episodes, 40, like no fillers, no reruns, just 40 brand new episodes, all trying to answer the questions we believe you already have in your heads.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And Katy made a baby in the midst of that.
WOJCIECH OLEKSIAK:
Yeah, and Katy made a baby.
KATY LEE:
Does that count as an episode?
WOJCIECH OLEKSIAK:
I'm not sure if the baby's Patreon-supported, but maybe it is.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Oh no, sorry.
WOJCIECH OLEKSIAK:
Yeah, that's for further investigation, I guess. And then like, you know, we just, we had quite a bit of room to experiment and to try to grow. So at the beginning of the year, we launched a YouTube channel. It's still very much in its early days, but you know, the world is moving more and more toward video, especially short video. And we're, you know, continuing to look for our niche there and on social media also like more broadly, but already our YouTube views account for 10% of our total listenership slash viewership. And our Instagram has grown by 40% this year. And you know, we have like, we think that this is probably the place where we will be looking for new people to join us at this virtual table next year.
We also produced a narrative series that was fully funded by listeners. And that is the coolest thing on earth. You’ve probably heard of that, it's called Who Does It Best, and your donations gave us the time and resources to do the three deep dives into issues that we believe bother many Europeans day in and day out. If someone missed it somehow, right after this show, please go and listen.
And just recently, we launched a fantastic newsletter. If you haven't subscribed yet, do it now. It really brightens up my Friday mornings. It's funny, it's informative, it's brilliant. It's written by our newest addition to the team, Morgan Childs.
KATY LEE:
It’s great.
WOJCIECH OLEKSIAK:
Yeah, it's just perfect. It's short and there are visual memes there, like, you know, actual images with funny captions. So definitely go and subscribe if you haven't yet. And yeah, last but not least, you know, the whole business side of things we're trying, we're making real strides toward becoming a sustainable operation.
So we're still quite far from where we want to be. It's not easy. But this year, it's been really, really amazing. And our Patreon supporters group grew by 35 percent. This is really, like, amazing. And that's resulted in a 20 percent increase in total donations.
These numbers are absolutely awesome and I can't be more thankful and grateful. I hope we can continue this growth. So, yeah, sorry for this business plug in the middle of a very festive show, but this is really super important to us. And thank you for making it all possible. If someone who's not in the room would like to contribute to the existence of the show beyond 2027, it's never too late to jump on the bandwagon. And you can go and subscribe to be a supporter of our show at patreon.com forward slash Europeans podcast.
Last but not least, I have the greatest honour in the world to thank our most recent supporters, our newest supporters. And these are Izela, Glenn, Natalie, Maria, Melanie, Michelle, Liz, Amalia, Mar, Mark, Leonard, Mary. And great thanks to Sergio, Gavin and Kris for increasing their donations.
And also thanks to one very generous supporter, you know who you are, for sending us a wonderful Christmas postcard.
KATY LEE:
Thank you so much, everyone. You know, we said this all the time, but we really couldn't do this without you. And thank you, Reluctant Business Manager Wojciech, there should have been PowerPoint slides.
WOJCIECH OLEKSIAK:
Yeah, that's for next year.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE:
So this week's interview: I should probably tell you how it came about, listeners. We cover a lot of things on this show. The far right drift of European politics, hybrid warfare, the sale of human organs. But for this last show of the year, we generally like to go for a cheery topic. And a few weeks ago, we were trying to figure out who we might talk to. And Dominic said, you know, I'd really love to interview, like, a composer about how you make music Christmassy. But I just can't think of the right person. And of course, the right person was staring us in the face.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I can't believe I didn't think of it myself. But thank goodness, Katy, you realised that our jingle composer, Jim Barne, has written a huge hit musical that contains a parody of Christmas songs.
KATY LEE:
Yeah, so people listening to this may or may not know about this. We've mentioned it a few times on the show. But yes, indeed, our resident jingle composer Jim Barne, when he's not composing jingles based on the European anthem, he writes musicals, stage shows. He writes the music and his writing partner Kit Buchan writes the lyrics and the script. And I've known Jim and Kit for 20 years. They are very good friends of mine. They played in a band with my husband when we first met. They actually still do officially, although life has somewhat gotten in the way of that.
And yeah, I've just been watching these very dear friends of mine working and working and working for years and years and years on these amazing stage shows, getting slowly more successful, slowly more successful, until last year, they kind of hit the big time. One of their shows made it to a theatre in London's very prestigious West End theatre district. The show is a romantic comedy called Two Strangers (Carry a Cake Across New York). It is set at Christmas time. And the show has just gone from strength to strength because a few weeks ago, it opened to rave reviews on Broadway in New York, which is incredibly exciting.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
It’s amazing.
KATY LEE:
You saw the London version of this show, right, Dominic?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, and I really loved it. It's so joyous and joyful. And it's just two people on stage, but they managed to make it feel like it's much more than that.
KATY LEE:
So it's a comedy about a British guy who goes to New York for his dad's wedding at Christmastime. And he ends up going on an unexpected adventure with the bride's sister. It is really funny, really poignant. The New York Times described it as ‘effervescent’ and says it ‘delivers lavishly on laughter, escape and fantasy’. And indeed, because it's set at Christmas time, there is a distinctly Christmassy vibe to the stage show, including, as Dominic says, a very funny song that parodies Christmas classics.
You're actually going to hear a bit of the two stars, Christiani Pitts and Sam Tutty, performing that song in a music video for Playbill. But yeah, the fact that they have had to think quite a lot about how to make a song sound like Christmas made Jim and Kit the perfect people to talk to, to answer this burning question of Dominic's this week: What makes Christmassy music Christmassy?
We gave them a ring on Monday in a very appropriately snowy New York.
[SKYPE CALLING SOUND]
KATY LEE:
I feel nervous suddenly. It's very weird interviewing your friends. Hi, Jim and Kit. So nice to have you here.
KIT BUCHAN:
Hi, Katy!
JIM BARNE:
It is such an honour to be on The Europeans podcast.
KATY LEE:
Finally, you've been asked. Now, obviously, we want to start with massive congratulations.
Your musical has just opened on Broadway, and it is an even bigger success than Jim's jingle that he wrote for the Europeans. Congratulations.
JIM BARNE:
Thank you so much. That is really kind. Thank you for championing the musical before anyone knew about it for years and years.
KATY LEE:
This is the crazy thing, because I was thinking about when I first heard the first songs, and it was, I think, 2017, and we were in the middle of France, and it was snowing. We were in the middle of nowhere, deep, deep cold. And I heard these songs for the first time on the piano, and you were just kind of messing around with them at the time. And now they're on Broadway.
JIM BARNE:
I remember we played you “What’ll It Be?” I think. And you were profoundly moved by it, which is something that over the coming years, or the subsequent years, we've thought about a lot. Because we were like, Katy liked this song.
KIT BUCHAN:
I think there was like a tear in one of your eyes.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Conjunctivitis, probably.
JIM BARNE:
And it was like, we really held on to that tear. We really treasured it for years. We have to have been on to something, otherwise that wouldn't have happened.
KATY LEE:
I can't believe that. I never knew this.
KIT BUCHAN:
And if it turns out it was conjunctivitis, then we were on the highway to nothing all along.
KATY LEE:
Anyway, that is a very beautiful song, which, of course, everybody should check out. And of course, go and see the show, if you can. But we're mostly here to talk about the sort of more Christmassy side of the musical.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, and one of the songs you wrote is a fantastic Christmas song pastiche. Before we get into that song specifically, I wanted to ask, how Christmassy are you as people? Do you love this season, especially musically, or does it drive you slightly mad?
KIT BUCHAN:
I mean, yeah, the simple answer is the first one. We love it. Pretty uncomplicatedly, actually, I would say – maybe with a slight hesitation on your part.
JIM BARNE:
I think you helped me love it even more than I did originally. But I always loved it. But now I really love it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That's absolutely delightful and a wonderful insight into your long and now successful partnership. But okay, this Christmassy song in your musical is called “Under the Mistletoe.”
[Music clip]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
When you were writing it, like what musical and lyrical tropes did you play with? Like what to you makes something sound Christmassy?
JIM BARNE:
That’s a great question. I think for this song in particular, we wanted to focus in on like big, crooner songs. And there were reasons for that in the show itself. But it meant that we listened to a lot of like, Bing Crosby and Irving Berlin and Frank Sinatra, you know.
KIT BUCHAN:
And Nat King Cole and Andy Williams. And all of those dudes who all sort of had at least one smash number. Dean Martin. And it was also particularly an American type of Christmas song we were trying to achieve because our British character is obsessed with America.
[Music clip]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
What are the common threads between all those American croony Christmas hits?
KIT BUCHAN:
There isn't always a common thread between them. But you could say that culturally, they express a kind of antediluvian, kind of innocent bygone era of the American dream or something. Or like, in particular, a kind of a snowy sort of Midwestern ideal, secular, but still kind of antiquated mode.
And they're not always love songs. Some of them are sort of generic, Happy Christmas songs, like the Christmas song by Nat King Cole, or It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year by Andy Williams. But when they are love songs, like Walking in a Winter Wonderland or Let It Snow, they're pretty PG-13.
They tend to be quite like, almost like kids on a date, if that's allowed to say. You know, they're throwing snowballs, and they're going on a sleigh ride, which by the 1950s, I don't think even really existed anymore. And then they're going home and getting cosy by the fire.
Now, not all of them are as kind of sexless as that. And some of them drift into the territory of the quite flirtatious and quite kind of double entendre. And those, in particular, the ones that we wanted to kind of draw on as well, like the Eartha Kitt kind of thing, or Baby It's Cold Outside, which has been recorded by everyone ever.
So it was like, even within what you think of as the conventional Christmas crooner tradition, there are subcategories of that. And we sort of wanted, we didn't want to imitate one song in particular. We wanted to sort of condense a certain amount of that material into one two-minute number.
KATY LEE:
But did you have to work quite hard to figure out, like, what that Christmassyness consisted of? Or was it just kind of there in your brains already?
JIM BARNE:
I think maybe that second one, in that we were certainly listening to a lot of Christmassy music when we did it, but we weren't sort of doing any sort of in-depth analysis to try and work out how we might reproduce it.
It's funny you ask this question, because the point of the song is that our two characters, Robin and Dougal, are trying to recreate a sort of generic Christmas song.
KIT BUCHAN:
He’s familiar with that music because he loves it. She's familiar with it because she's forcibly exposed to it. And so they both conveniently have like a catalogue of songs that they can draw on. And they're probably a bit unfair in the way that they summarise that music. Like, what they're kind of saying is, oh, these kind of older men who, in reality, are quite kind of cynical people, are singing these, like, innocent love songs, which are really kind of attempts at seduction.
Now, that is true for some Christmas songs, but...
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Baby It's Cold Outside is sinister.
KATY LEE:
So creepy.
KIT BUCHAN:
Yes, there's a few lyrics in that that need a look. I think the bit where she says, “What's in this drink?” is always a worry.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Right? But hey, we haven't given Jim a chance to talk about his musical inspiration. Was it like musical Christmas vibes? Or are there like specific chords or instruments or textures that you really think are Christmassy?
JIM BARNE:
That's interesting. I have been thinking about it and listening to loads of Christmas music again before this interview to try and sort of distill what those things might be. It was funny that Kit just mentioned that sleigh rides maybe weren't a thing when that song was written, because in music as well, what's often happening is a type of nostalgia.
The old sounding music is being conjured up. It's, I guess, most clear for us when we listen to contemporary artists sort of do Christmas songs. And they're sort of incorporating a lot of things into the songs that wouldn't typically be there in their normal pop sound.
But just talking about like crooner songs and what might be things that sort of link them together, the closest we can get to an answer is probably orchestration, which is like various instruments that crop up a lot. Most notably sleigh bells, choirs of angels or harps or, you know, like glockenspiels, like bells, sort of churchy, heavenly sounding things. Those sorts of characters kind of keep cropping up.
KIT BUCHAN:
It's such an interesting thing that you just said, Jim, about Christmas itself just sort of being nostalgic. Anyway, in all sorts of ways, we just all come on a bit nostalgic. Being in America, you notice this more. A lot of what is Christmassy here is a sort of a slightly manufactured, but nevertheless, very compelling idea of a kind of European-ness. And maybe that dates back to a time at the turn of the century or something when people were, when there were people who literally missed Europe and wanted to remember that at that time of year. But yeah, there's, I don't know, something about it that feels oldie-worldie and velvety.
KATY LEE:
But that's so interesting that you say that because I was at a Christmas market the other day here in France, and all of the music was anglophone, American Christmas songs. It was all, like, Mariah. France just doesn't have a culture of Christmas music in the same way. And it feels like the world listens to American Christmas music. So it's funny that that is kind of in turn inspired by the old world.
JIM BARNE:
Yeah, I mean, if we think of Christmas itself, you know, it's like a Middle Eastern religion that's come to Europe. And now Christmas, as you say, is sort of owned by America in terms of the way we think about, even the way Santa looks or whatever. It's because of some American company who decided he should look like that. It's like, it is this hodgepodge of loads of different cultural influences.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
We're all projecting our Christmas fantasies onto each other, thinking, oh yeah, this is here in Europe. It's all about what's happening in the States. And maybe they're interested in what we're doing here.
I guess that's also one of the themes of your musical as well, like how the Brits and the Americans look at each other. That's one of the things I really liked about it when I saw it. I wanted to ask you, do you think that there's a problem that so many of the Christmas songs that we hear each year are like the same Christmas songs year after year, and the traditions almost become fossilised? Or do you think that repetition is part of the magic of this time of year?
JIM BARNE:
Yeah, there's always an article about how much Mariah Carey is making every Christmas, isn't there? I think that what's really lovely about that is that you get this intergenerational sharing of Christmas music that you actually don't really get elsewhere anymore. It's kind of one of the last vestiges of lots and lots of different people from lots of different places and lots of different generations who all know the same cultural touch points and stuff.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I’m also a big fan of Christmas carols, and actually it's always been one of my favourite things about this time of year, that thing of getting together. I've always sung carols with my family, but also at school and in churches and places. And I used to even go carol singing door to door as a kid every year. Did you guys ever do that?
JIM BARNE:
I did, yeah.
KIT BUCHAN:
Yeah.
JIM BARNE:
We used to in our village.
KIT BUCHAN:
And that's another nice thing about Christmas carols and carolling is it puts us in contact with something quite ancient, like an oral tradition. We're all gathering and going door to door. That feels really like an antiquated thing to do, and it connects us with our ancestors, I guess, in a way. And the cold, extreme cold, can bring out something primal in you, I think, just as a sensation.
JIM BARNE:
Maybe a need for community.
KATY LEE:
It makes me really sad listening to you all talk that people don't really do this anymore. I feel like if you went to someone's door these days, they just assume that you're an Amazon delivery driver. There's something a bit tragic about that.
JIM BARNE:
The Ring doorbell would film you.
KIT BUCHAN:
Yes.
KATY LEE:
Um, we couldn't let you leave without asking you about your much bigger musical achievement, which is writing the jingle for this podcast. Could you share your experience of how you came to write for this podcast? What inspired you? And what your process was?
JIM BARNE:
Yeah, I was inspired by… I was very much inspired by an email I got from you both, where you told me exactly what you wanted. You were like, “we want it to be ‘Ode to Joy’, but we wanted to, like, descend into explosions.” Like, it was basically the brief. I was like, I can do that.
The idea behind it was to try and have lots of different, like, European-sounding genres all in the same jingle. That was the idea. And then eventually they were sort of mixed to the point of exploding. That's not meant to be a prediction for the EU, I should say.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE:
Thank you so much to Jim and Kit for speaking to us. You will find a link in the show notes to the incredible Christiani Pitts and Sam Tutty performing “Under the Mistletoe” for Playbill. And it goes without saying, if you live in New York or you're going to New York, go and see Two Strangers (Carry a Cake Across New York). It is an absolute delight.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I want to go. Can I go?
KATY LEE:
Yes.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Thank you.
KATY LEE:
I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation. I think it's really nice sometimes to let people hear a bit from the people whose work goes into making our show, who you don't hear from. You know, every single episode of this podcast starts with this iconic jingle. Can I say it's iconic?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
You can say it's iconic.
KATY LEE:
It's iconic. But it's nice for people to get to hear from the person who made that happen, though.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I think so, too. We felt a bit self-conscious about having four British people, although Katie is French and I am also German, of course. But four British people talking to each other, primarily about Anglophone Christmas music.
But hey, we often get complaints from British people saying we're ignoring the UK on this podcast about Europe. So yeah, maybe it's okay.
KATY LEE:
We fixed that just in time for the new year.
We were saying the other day that because we started the Europeans when we had no money at all, we never actually paid Jim for his jingles.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
It's true. Well, we did take him on a foraging course.
KATY LEE:
Oh yeah, in lieu of payment.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And it was really fun. But yeah, I suddenly feel a bit guilty about that.
KATY LEE:
Especially now he's a big Broadway composer. It doesn't feel quite right to just give him a foraging course. Should we send him a Europeans tote bag or something?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Maybe we should do another foraging course.
KATY LEE:
Oh, you know where we should do it? We should do it in Italy. There's really good mushroom foraging in Italy.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Let's do it. Although I'm scared of mushroom foraging. Don't kill me.
KATY LEE:
We’re not going to die. It's fine.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Famous last words.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE:
Now we get to hear from some of the lovely members of the audience who are here with us tonight. All of this time that we've been chatting, people have been dropping into the Zoom chat their recommendations for things to read or watch or listen to over the holidays.
So for this final episode of the year, we are delighted to bring you a listener edition of the Inspiration Station. Now, producer Morgan has been scrolling through the chat reading everyone's recommendations. And I think there's a couple of people you'd like to call on.
Morgan?
MORGAN CHILDS:
Such good stuff. Yeah. The first person I want to ask to unmute is Attila. Can you join us here?
ATTILA:
Yes. Hi.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Hi, Attila.
ATTILA:
Hi. So I'd like to recommend a Spanish-Catalan movie. It's called Molt lluny. Sorry for butchering Catalan. In English, it's called Away. And it's about a Catalan man, Sergio, who goes to Utrecht to a football match with his friends. But instead of returning to Barcelona afterwards, he decides to stay alone in the Netherlands and start a new life, to come to terms with his issues, such as his professional life and his sexuality. And I think it's a really moving story about moving abroad and also very international.
And also it was a Christmas sequence, so it can pass as a Christmas watch as well.
KATY LEE:
Nice.
ATTILA:
And it's available in Movistar.
KATY LEE:
Sounds great.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Sounds really lovely. I'm going to put it on my list.
KATY LEE:
What's it called again?
ATTILA:
In English, it's Away.
KATY LEE:
That sounds great. Thanks so much, Attila.
MORGAN CHILDS:
Thank you so much. And the next person that I'd like to call on is Anna. Can I ask you to unmute?
ANNA:
Hi.
KATY LEE:
Hi, Anna.
ANNA:
So I've read this book. Actually, I listened to the audio audiobook. It's called When the Cranes Fly South. It is by a Swedish author. And I'm going to butcher her name now.
Something like Lisa Ridzén. And it's the story of this 89 years old man. He has a dog and his son thinks he cannot take care of his dog any longer because he's afraid he's going to maybe hurt himself while he goes on a walk with him.
But he really loves the dog. And so there's a bit of conflict with his son. And there's all these memories he has of his wife. And so there's like this mix of present and past. And it's very tender the way it's written.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Sounds very beautiful.
KATY LEE:
That sounds great. Excellent choice. Thank you.
ANNA:
Thank you.
MORGAN CHILDS:
Thank you very much. And finally, I wish we could call on everybody. But the last person we have time for is Stephen. Could you come on mic?
STEPHEN:
Yeah. Can you hear me okay?
MORGAN CHILDS:
Yes.
STEPHEN:
Good. I would like to recommend a book. It came out in 2024, but I read it in 2025. So I'm counting it as this year. It's by Simon Kuper, who's a Financial Times journalist and wrote a book called Impossible City about living in Paris. Katy, you may have read this.
KATY LEE:
I haven't.
STEPHEN:
It's about someone who, he moved to Paris at the start of the millennium. And it's a story of his family and their life there. And there's all this stuff about culture clashes and, you know, waiters they don't like and driving in Paris and so on.
But there's also this stuff about his kids growing up in Paris. And there's also the dark side of what's happened in Paris over the years with the Bataclan and Charlie Hebdo and all of that. For someone like me who loves Paris, it really gives a good picture of that.
And it's Simon Kuper, and it's K-U-P-E-R, not as in the Scottish Cooper. But and it's called Impossible City.
KATY LEE:
Oh, that is extremely relevant to my interests, Stephen. And I know that Simon Kuper is an amazing, beautiful writer. So I am going to be putting that first on my reading list for 2026. Thank you so much.
STEPHEN:
You’re welcome.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, sounds like that would also be perfect for your newsletter research, Katy.
KATY LEE:
Oh, yeah, true. Plug! Thanks so much to all of you. Great choices.
MORGAN CHILDS:
Thank you, guys.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yes, really. Thank you all for sharing your European cultural recommendations. Shall we do a Happy Ending?
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
It’s funny, we never get to hear the jingle. So I never hear that sheep. We should do the jingle every time. It gives me so much joy.
For my happy ending this week, I want to tell you about two burrowing owls from Florida who have been living it large in Spain after they hitchhiked across the Atlantic on a cruise ship. The mating pair somehow boarded this ship back in February. Passengers spotted them during the 12-night voyage to Spain, at which point the crew stepped in, giving them the VIP treatment and they looked after them for the rest of the journey.
When they arrived in Spain, the owls were handed over to the authorities and taken to a wildlife rescue centre in Murcia, where, by all accounts, they've been very well cared for whilst in quarantine. And the good news is, early next year, they'll finally be heading home to Florida. Presumably, they're not going to be able to stop boasting to their friends about how they've summered in Europe.
KATY LEE:
Yeah, they're probably going to open like a TikTok account about the amazing places they've been. Are they going back via another leisurely cruise?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
No, this time they're going to be taking an aeroplane, but their fees have been paid for by the Fish and Wildlife Foundation of Florida.
So yeah, they've had a great free trip and they have avoided the cost of living crisis. That's a stupid joke. If this wasn't live, I would cut that.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE:
That just about wraps up our final episode of 2025. We will be back on January the 8th, fresh and plump from the holidays and rejuvenated and ready for a year of definitely, definitely no depressing news. Yay!
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, maybe 2026 is going to be the year when everything turns out to be okay and we start struggling to look for stories that we could use for Bad Week instead of the other way around. Wouldn't that be nice?
KATY LEE:
The whole episode is just going to be a happy ending.
Yeah, sorry to get serious for a second, but honestly it is sometimes hard to stay sane during the state of the world. But yeah, making this podcast really does help me to make sense of everything that's been happening while not getting too sad and hopeless about the state of things at the same time. And I really hope that's also been your experience of listening to the podcast this year.
If you have got ideas for things that you think we should be covering in 2026, do let us know, send us an email, hello at europeanspodcast. We've actually had some really good ideas coming already.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
We have.
I want to give a big thank you to everyone who's worked on this podcast this year. Some of you are here and it's been really, really special working with you all and kind of professionalising gradually and managing to cope even when Katy was off. So thank you all and the people who aren't here, who worked on Who Does It Best, and people like Rosa who designed our visuals.
It's been so nice working with you all. I feel so lucky.
KATY LEE:
All that stuff that he just said.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
This week's show was produced by Morgan Childs and Wojciech Oleksiak, who also did the mixing and mastering. And our music is by the wonderful Jim Barne. Don't forget to check us out on the socials if you aren't following us already. We can be found on Mastodon, BlueSky, Instagram and YouTube.
KATY LEE:
See you all in 2026. Wishing everyone a very restful end of the year. Farvel.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Fijne feestdagen.
Inspiration Station (LISTENER) recommendations:
Attila recommended the recent Catalan film Molt lluny (Away)
Anna loved the book When the Cranes Fly South by Swedish author Lisa Ridzén
Stephen plugged Simon Kuper’s memoir Impossible City: Paris in the Twenty-First Century
Other resources for this episode:
Watch Christiani Pitts and Sam Tutty performing ‘Under the Mistletoe’ here.
Our final newsletter of 2025 will be out tomorrow. Click here to get it in your inbox.
Producer
Morgan Childs and Wojciech Oleksiak and
Mixing and mastering
Wojciech Oleksiak
Music
Jim Barne and Mariska Martina
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