The world’s funniest superstate?
The European Union is many things: an economic powerhouse, an improbably successful peace project, or a bureaucratic hellscape, depending on who you ask. Most people would probably agree on one thing that it isn’t: funny. So when Susanna Kierkegaard set out to write Sweden’s first genuinely entertaining book about the EU, many might have dismissed the idea as a fool’s errand. And yet she has somehow pulled it off.
This week, we call up Susanna to share some of the best bits from her book Superstaten : EU och framtiden, from the MEP who expensed 250 kilograms of chocolate to the Italian whose unpaid electricity bills changed the course of European law.
Susanna is a columnist for Aftonbladet. You can read her work here, and follow her on Instagram as well as TikTok.
Producer
Katy Lee
Mixing and mastering
Wojciech Oleksiak
Music
Jim Barne and Mariska Martina
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KATY LEE:
Hello, welcome back to the Europeans. I'm going to skip the bit where we talk about how hot it is. Suffice to say, it is hot. And yeah, I hope you're all staying as cool as possible listeners.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I've been staying cool in that typical Amsterdam way by jumping in the rat infested waters.
KATY LEE:
Oh, lovely.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I mean, in general, I find it one of the most wonderful things about living in the city that you can do that. But the other day, I went to jump in and saw a giant dead swollen rat, like just where I was about to jump in.
KATY LEE:
Welcome to Amsterdam.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I decided there was a line. Although my friends were all just like, it's fine. We'll jump in anyway.
KATY LEE:
That's disgusting.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Anyway, you wanted to not talk about how hot it's been.
KATY LEE:
Yes.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I'm not doing very well at that. But what are we actually doing here today?
KATY LEE:
Yeah, well, every now and then we have a conversation with someone. And after recording it, we think, oh god, like, how are we going to squeeze that into this 15 ish minute slot that we normally reserve for our weekly interview? And yeah, this week was one of those weeks. And we have therefore made the bold choice to chuck out the rest of the episode that we have planned for this week. And just focus on this one conversation, because it was so rich and thought provoking, and it went in so many different directions, from European taxpayers’ money being spent on chocolate to an Italian man who refused to pay his electricity bill changing the course of European law, that we thought, you know what, this interview is enough for the entire episode.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yes. So we're going to be joined by someone who has been grappling with a big question that we also often grapple with on this show, the question of how to communicate about Europe in a way that is actually engaging. We started making this podcast about nine years ago, in part because we felt like Europe was only ever talked about in the media in very dry and serious terms. And because of that, the vast majority of European citizens were not actually taking any notice of what was happening in other countries on this vast and diverse continent of ours, let alone taking notice of how decisions were being made at the level of the European Union. And yeah, in part, we think that's because of how the European institutions are talked about, and perhaps also how they communicate about themselves.
KATY LEE:
Yeah, for the entire time that we've been making The Europeans, we've been slowly getting to grips with all of the jargon used by EU institutions, you know, words like subsidiarity, rapporteur.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Even like the the words they use instead of the word law, like directives, regulations. And I know that like, some of these words are necessary when you're like creating a new political institution, which is what happened all those decades ago. But it does sometimes feel like you have to have done a degree in European studies in order to actually be able to follow what is being discussed and what is going on there.
So yeah, whenever we hear about someone who is joining us on this journey to try and make Europe a bit more engaging, we take notice.
KATY LEE:
And this person has been doing this with great success, it would seem. Susanna Kierkegaard is a columnist for Aftonbladet, one of Sweden's biggest newspapers, where she writes in general about politics. But she has a particular interest in the EU after starting her career as a trainee in the European Parliament in her pre-journalism days. And so a while back, she set out on what some people might argue was an impossible mission, to write the first funny book in Swedish about the European Union. The result is Superstaten, or Superstate, which came out in Swedish just a few weeks ago.
And judging from the reviews in the Swedish media, she has kind of nailed it. The book takes its readers into the heart of the EU, explaining how its institutions work in a way that manages to actually be entertaining.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So if you are someone who actually reads Swedish, we thoroughly recommend that you get your hands on a copy of Superstaten. The book is very much aimed at Swedish readers. There's a lot in there about Sweden's particular relationship with the EU. So there are sadly no plans to translate it right now. But we thought it would be a shame not to bring Susanna's fun and insightful observations to an international audience. So we are delighted to bring you her first non-Swedish interview about what she found. Enjoy a great chat with Susanna Kierkegaard on the line from Stockholm.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Susanna, thank you so much for joining us today. Really nice to have you here.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Thanks for having me.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So we're here to talk about your new book, which has been getting excellent reviews in the Swedish press. It's a book about the European Union. Why did you decide to call it Superstate?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
So the Superstate, at first I just thought it was a fun word.
KATY LEE:
It is a fun word.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
It is a very triggering word for lots of people in Sweden. I think it's sort of the same in the UK and Sweden. You've had this debate where people portray the European Union as something big and scary that only, like it only interferes in the national politics when it wants to sort of ban something that shouldn't be banned or things like that. So the Superstate, is sort of a play on that. But also because I started writing the book and then realised that the Superstate was sort of in the background of all the issues that I was writing about. So it's a good symbol for the ongoing debate on the EU's future and where it's supposed to go, in what direction we're going.
KATY LEE:
But it was a kind of tongue in cheek choice, I guess.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Yes, it's meant to be fun and to trigger people a little bit as well.
KATY LEE:
Fun and triggering, two things that we try and do here on this podcast as well. I mean, it was an ambition of yours, I think, to write Sweden's first entertaining, funny book about the EU. We actually started this podcast because we felt like the EU was talked about in a boring way in our own domestic media. Dominic and I both grew up in the UK pre-Brexit. I'm guessing it's probably the same for what you've already said in the Swedish media. Just how boringly is the EU talked about in Sweden?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
It's pretty boring, which I think is such a waste because EU politics, it's, in my opinion, much more fun than national politics, at least in Sweden. I think British politics are quite dramatic, so they might be able to compete. But for everyone who's interested in politics, you're interested in power, right? And who's in power and what they're doing with that power. And European politicians have so much more influence than Swedish politicians. So for instance, the laws that they make in the European Parliament, for instance, they trump the Swedish constitution. And I don't think many people know that. So actually, if you're interested in politics, you should be very interested in EU politics.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And how do you go about writing about the European Union in a funny way? Like, is it something that came to you naturally? Or did you have to look really hard to like, try and find examples of funny things to sprinkle into each chapter?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
It was very easy, actually. So I used to live in Brussels and work in Brussels. I worked in the European Parliament and my boyfriend worked in the Parliament for even longer than I was there. So I've spent a lot of time in Brussels and seen many strange things. So there was a lot to write about. So the book is sort of a mix between political analysis, a bit of history, and my own opinions, and then some stories from Brussels and from my time there.
KATY LEE:
So you're someone who knew Brussels fairly well.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Yes.
KATY LEE:
Although I'm guessing there were probably some things that you dug up during the research for this book that were surprising for you. I mean, I've certainly read some surprising things. There was this great story about how this principle of the EU law being supreme over national law. This emerged because of an Italian who refused to pay his electricity bills.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Yes.
KATY LEE:
That's a great example. I didn't know that story. By the way, listeners, his name was Flaminio Costa, if you want to look it up. But yeah, what are some other examples –
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Sorry, no, don't scroll. Could you tell me a bit more about that?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Okay, so in 1962, the Italian government decided to take over all the production and distribution of electricity. And there was this lawyer from Milano who wasn't happy at all. So he refused to pay his electricity bill from this state-owned company. And then he actually, he said that this is like against EU law on competition and state support.
So he actually decided to go to court. And this like ended up with the EU court saying that EU law is actually, sort of weighs heavier than national law.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And that was the first time that had been decided?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Yeah, that's the first time. It's really interesting as well, because I don't think like if you would have asked all the leaders of the different European member states at that time, like, would you like European law to be more important than national law? They probably would have said no. But at the same time, the EU court ruled that sort of you've agreed on all these principles. And it doesn't make any sense. If you can just sort of make your own laws that are contradictory to those laws, like then there's no point to this project at all. So it makes sense logically. But it's also a bit interesting, the dynamic between the EU courts and national politics are sort of driving the integration forward.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So it's kind of a miracle that it actually happened like this. That's so interesting.
KATY LEE:
But it also feels like a classic European story, because it's like, of course, it's gonna be about a random guy refusing to pay his electricity bill, but we realised this huge principle of international law. I kind of love it. Okay, so there's this guy with his electricity bills. Can you give us a couple of other examples of things that you learned while writing this book that were really surprising to you?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
So one thing I learned was that actually, Viktor Orbán has been sort of the biggest villain in the European project for the last 10 years. But actually, before that, he was very fond of the European project. And Hungary was actually described as a model country when they were applying for EU membership. So that I found interesting, because that just goes to show that you have no idea where it's going. And sort of a conclusion from that could be that the EU actually needs to prepare for more Orbáns. You don't know if a politician that's sort of good now could turn into an authoritarian figure in the future. So that was interesting. Something else that was interesting was that there was actually a campaign among Christian Democrats, both in Sweden and abroad, who believed that the EU was the beginning of antichrist taking over. So it sounds insane. And it was insane. And this is all of this stuff I just found out, or this stuff, like some of the sort of weird, very specific things I found out by going to the Swedish Royal Library and just looking at their archives and searching for the superstate and stuff like that, weird terms. And this was just Christian Democrats debating joining the EU and comparing it to some part of the Bible. It's about some sort of monster that controls trade, like you need to pay the monster to be able to trade. Sounds exactly like the EU.
KATY LEE:
How have their political enemies ever let them forget this episode?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
I know, it's hilarious. I have no idea.
But I'm trying to sort of bring it back.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Especially considering the Christian Democrats essentially rule the European institutions and have for a long time now.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Not the Swedish ones.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Okay, not the Swedish ones.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Other countries. Yeah.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So yeah, it's interesting talking about trying to make Europe more entertaining and more fun. I do sometimes find myself wondering also when making this podcast, isn't it kind of good that a lot of this stuff is boring? I mean, the nitty gritty of like making legislation that protects our rights that hopefully makes our lives better is inevitably a bit boring. Is there an argument to be made that we should be grateful that we don't have as much of this like politics as entertainment set up that they have over there in the US and that has led to a highly unqualified TV personality running the country over there at the moment? That's a really interesting question, because that's a debate that's very ongoing now in Sweden, because we have our national elections in September this year, and lots of traditional media TV channels are trying to compete with like TikTok and different entertainment social media by doing these fun shows with the party leaders.
And people are very critical of that. But I think it can be good. I think it's a good thing for democracy, probably, if you can get as many people as possible to feel that politics is a bit closer to them, and that they understand it better and that they're interested in it.
You know, the boring and complicated stuff is still going to be there. So whenever they're ready to dive into that, that's also there for them.
KATY LEE:
Yeah, not everyone has Dominic's high tolerance for boredom and complication.
I mean, it might be presented as boring in the media, but still, Sweden is one of the countries with the highest levels of trust in the EU. 69% of Swedes trust the EU, according to Eurobarometer. I'm speaking to you from the other end of the spectrum from one of the countries with the lowest trust in the EU, France, where only 36% trust the EU. At least, that's what they tell the pollsters. Where do you think those differences come from?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
You'll have to tell me about why French people don't trust the EU. But I can tell you why I think Swedish people trust the EU. I think it's seen as, the first answer is probably really boring. It's that people have gotten used to it. And Swedish people are just very sort of, if something's there, they're just gonna, you know, accept it and think it's probably a good thing. The EU hasn't really done anything to harm us. Most people are just sort of accepting that it's there. And they think that, you know, most Swedish people are interested in climate policy, for instance, and they realise that the most efficient level to have those kind of policies isn't a European level. But I think the most interesting thing about that is that there's a huge discrepancy between the public's view of the EU in Sweden and the actual politics that the parties are promoting. So Swedish politicians are actually much more negative in their view of the EU than the Swedish public is.
KATY LEE:
Interesting.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
What about France? Why don't they trust the EU?
KATY LEE:
I mean, I think French people are always miserable when they talk to pollsters. That's part of the story. But I think it is partly that, you know, we live in a rich country where people do not feel like life has gotten better in recent decades, even, and that life is getting harder. Their pay at the end of the month doesn't go as far as it used to. And there are powerful parties in politics, namely Marine Le Pen's party, pushing this rhetoric very strongly of, it is their fault. This is the fault of Brussels. And it is an easy narrative that is easy to convince people of, especially people that don't follow politics very much. I think that's part of it. There's obviously a strong farming sector here as well, which has a complicated relationship with the EU, because there's obviously a lot of subsidies that go into the farming sector here. But again, it is this kind of inherent distrust of Brussels potentially making life worse. Yeah, those are a couple of the factors I'd say.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
That's interesting.
KATY LEE:
I'm probably missing something huge.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
An interesting difference there is I think that there are big and growing populist movements in Sweden as well, but they haven't really identified the EU as a target of their populism yet. And maybe that's because the EU just isn't as present in Swedish politics as it is in, for instance, France, I think like the Swedish prime minister doesn't base his speeches around the European Union's politics. And it's just, yeah, people just don't think as much about the EU, I think. So they're just sort of accepting it and then moving on the populists as well.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So interesting that this vilification of the EU hasn't quite made it to Sweden's far right populists. Anyway, we should take a quick break now, but we'll be back in a second.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Apologies for interrupting the interview very briefly, but it's time for our favourite weekly ritual. Thanking the wonderful listeners who decided to support us on patreon.com/europeans podcast or via our website over the past week. Those latest supporters are Rebecca, Ryan, Bruno, Chris, and Victoria. Thank you all so much. If you value what we do here at the Europeans, then please consider joining us on Patreon. Depending on how much you give, there are some really nice things we can give you in return, ranging from frequent extra content to a personalised super mini episode, essentially a fancy voice note from Katy and me. Head to patreon.com/europeans podcast to see what the options are.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE:
So in 2017, you made the journey from Sweden to Brussels to go and work as a trainee in the European Parliament. Is it true that you kind of pretended to be Danish when you got there?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Not to my colleagues in the parliament. They knew very well that I was Swedish. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have gotten the internship. But so I have a Danish surname. And actually, the first six months, I think in Brussels, I lived in a church, which sounds very scary. It was fine because it was a Danish church. And Danish churches are sort of like Swedish churches. They're very chill and don't really take all the religious stuff very seriously. So we were just a bunch of students staying in the building that was attached to the Danish church. As a Swede, you can understand Danish sort of, and they can understand Swedish as well. So you can sort of fake a Danish accent. So I tried to sound a little bit Danish because I didn't know if they were gonna accept me if they knew I was from Sweden. So I sort of, I spoke a little fake Danish, and then just said, like, Oh, well, take the rest over email. And then just used Google Translate to write to them in Danish. They actually decided when I was living there when at this meeting, with everyone staying there, I wasn't there, I was out, they decided that in the future, they're just gonna accept Danish residents. Yeah, just coincidence.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
But at any rate, you managed to find somewhere to live and ended up working at the European Parliament first as a trainee and then as a political advisor to two members of the European Parliament. And during your time there, I think you got some quite interesting insights into how MEPs spend our money.
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Yes. So they don't really spend the money in bad ways. It's just that the rules aren't really good. So they have this thing called the office allowance for MEPs, and that's money that they're supposed to spend on an office in their home country. But in my experience, most MEPs don't really have an office in their home countries. They either work at, you know, like the party offices or just from home. And usually they're travelling quite a lot as well. So they can just pocket the money if they want. They can do whatever they want with that money. And it's quite a big sum. They don't need to provide receipts for it. They don't need to provide proof of what they've spent. They can provide receipts now. So they change the rules a little bit, but they don't have to. That's not very good for trust in the institutions. And that's been very criticised in Sweden as well.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I mean, especially considering anyone that's ever got a grant from the EU knows that they have to deliver so many receipts and invoices. They usually love receipts. Exactly.
It's quite surprising.
KATY LEE:
I think there was one case of an MEP spending a lot of money on chocolate, right?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Yeah. She's not going to be happy that I'm talking about it, like spreading the word in English as well. Because she's a bit embarrassed about it. I actually met her a couple of weeks ago. And I told her because I actually, I think that was a good way to spend the office allowance. So she spent it on buying 250 kilos of chocolate for campaigning. So these small little pieces of chocolate that she just handed out on the streets. Like she's not just taking the money and using it for private expenses. She's actually doing something that, you know, she's out talking to people on the streets and campaigning.
KATY LEE:
Do we know for a fact that she didn't just eat some of it?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
I mean, I've seen her handing them out, but I'm sure she ate some of it, but it was also 250 kilos. So, you know –
KATY LEE:
I mean, I think I could manage that, but let's move on.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Back to more serious spending issues. One of the things that your book details is the whole circus of the European Parliament making this monthly journey to Strasbourg and back in the name of democracy. Some listeners might not know this, but 12 times a year, the whole parliament up sticks and takes the train from Brussels to Strasbourg to sit in a different building, adding millions of euros in costs. How did witnessing that change the way you think about the EU and how it operates?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
I mean, when I was working there, it just seemed absurd because then it was so present, like you'd have to pack your things once a month and go to a different country. But now in hindsight, there's a lot of competition between European countries. And it's just like every new EU institution they come up with. There's like this big fight. All the countries want it in their country. So it's a very inefficient compromise. And I think everyone who works in the European Parliament hates it. But I don't really see how we could change it now. So I'm not as bothered by it now when I don't have to take that train myself every month.
KATY LEE:
Yeah, I can imagine. And in general, has writing this book made you more critical of the more frustrating things of the EU or maybe more willing to accept its imperfections and see the good of this political project?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
I think I've become more impressed with the EU in many ways. Since I moved from Brussels back to Sweden, I've had a more positive view of the European Union since I left it, because I think you need a bit of distance to all the moving circus and all those allowances and stuff like you shouldn't see. Yeah, you don't want to see it too close, you know, you need a bit of distance. But while writing the book, as I learned more and looked more about, you know, like the development in just recent years, and all these criticised laws and directives, when you look at them more closely, they usually make sense. And they're usually good, in my opinion. And I've become actually one thing that writing the book changed my mind about was the euro. So now I'm, I think Sweden should join the euro. That wasn't my opinion before – I was sort of hesitant.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And do you think there's any chance that Sweden will join the euro?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
Yeah, I think that might be a chance. I mean, we'd have to tie our exchange rate to the euro exchange rate for two years, I think. And right now, the exchange rate for the Swedish krona is really bad. So I don't think like, yeah, we need some time first. But the Swedish population has the tendency to change their minds very quickly, like with the NATO accession, for instance. Everyone just changed opinion in like a month.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
You argue in your book that the EU stands at a crossroads. What do you see as the different possible futures the EU faces?
SUSANNA KIERKEGAARD:
So I think the negative scenario, in my opinion, would be that it just fades away. I don't think any other countries after Britain, I don't think they're going to leave the EU, because everyone's a bit scared of doing that, after seeing how it went for the UK. The worst case scenario is the EU is just sort of paralysed and can't do anything, because they can't agree on anything, and everything just sort of fades out slowly. So that's the negative scenario. And that also means it has big geopolitical implications, because right now the EU is the best defender of democracy in the world, actually, now that the US is sort of stepping down from that role. And the positive scenario, I think, is that European countries actually use that momentum that we have right now when the US is stepping down and taking less responsibility for sort of democracy in the world. I mean, that's an opportunity for the EU. So I hope they seize the moment.
So do you see that future is more likely than the negative option right now? I am pretty optimistic, but I'm an optimistic person. I'm optimistic because I feel like it's moving more in that direction than the opposite. For instance, the Hungarian elections, that was just like the people of Hungary chose a completely different path from before.
They chose democracy, they chose the European Union, they chose cooperation. And I think that sort of captures something that's just in the air right now. I think lots of people are seeing what Donald Trump is doing and thinking, I don't want that.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
How optimistic are you about the future of Europe right now, Katy?
KATY LEE:
I mean, it kind of depends on the day. Right now in this sweltering heat, I'm feeling a bit demoralised that we're like living in this moment where the EU doesn't seem quite as serious about fighting climate change as it did a few years ago, like the mood has shifted somewhat. And in general, the heat is making me feel grumpy and critical about the things that really need fixing in Europe, you know, the inequalities and the hypocrisy of our tendency to lecture the rest of the world about how to do stuff when we are so far from being perfect ourselves. But yeah, I mean, ask me again when the weather cools down, because straight after talking to Susanna, I did feel a lot more optimistic and I am sure I will get there again. She's right that there's so much to cherish and protect in the EU, you know, even if it is clunky and imperfect.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Go and swim with some rats and cool down. I'm sure you'll feel better.
KATY LEE:
Okay.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I thought it was actually really nice to speak to someone who is thinking so thoughtfully about how to talk about Europe and where this continent is heading. I like that you could hear that she didn't always feel like she had to make out like she had a solution for everything. And I find it really appealing when you can actually hear someone trying to work something out when their ideas aren't already entirely set or fixed.
KATY LEE:
Yeah, I like that too. And in general, I hope that this conversation gave you as much food for thought as it did for us listeners. Susanna's book Superstaten is out in all good Swedish bookshops now. Go get yourself a copy if you read Swedish. And you can also follow Susanna on Instagram and TikTok. We will put the links in our show notes.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
And as Katy said, this book is most likely not going to be translated into English. So if you have other non-Swedish speaker friends who you think might find this conversation interesting, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is still the best way for this podcast to grow.
KATY LEE:
It really is.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
We're going to be taking a break next week. So do check us out on the socials. In the meantime, we're available on Mastodon, Bluesky and Instagram. This week's episode was produced by Katy Lee using the European-made software of Hindenburg Pro. Thank you, Katy.
KATY LEE:
You're very welcome. And thanks to everyone for listening.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Hej då.
KATY LEE:
Bye.
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