How to keep going when the world feels broken

5 Mar

This week, we wanted to ask a question that has been in our hearts and on our minds for years: Is it possible to try to make positive change in the world, and still stay healthy and sane? Dutch writer, political philosopher, and “recovering diplomat” Nori Spauwen believes that the answer is yes – even if it’s not always easy to strike the right balance. We chatted with Nori about “healthy” activism and training yourself to feel empowered in response to difficult news. If you’ve been overwhelmed lately (has anyone not?), this is a conversation for you.

Also in this week’s episode: a successful European Citizens’ Initiative that will make it easier for European women to procure abortion across borders, and a very Bad Week for Greece’s former finance minister-turned-public intellectual Yanis Varoufakis stemming from a Kylie Minogue concert 36 years ago.

How to keep going when the world feels broken
KATY LEE
Hey, this is the Europeans. What a horrible week for the world. But I hope everyone and their loved ones are doing okay. We do have listeners all over the world, including in the Middle East, and we are sending a lot of love to you.
This is Katy Lee in Paris. And I'm here this week with Katz Laszlo over in Amsterdam. Hi, Katz.
KATZ LASZLO
Hi, Katy.
KATY LEE
How are you doing?
KATZ LASZLO
I mean, I'm fine and lucky and safe, but it's been really horrible to read the news the past few days. I mean, the news has been horrifying for several years now. But this weekend was particularly rough. And I'm thinking a lot about the roughly 1.4 million Iranian Europeans on our continent.
KATY LEE
Yeah.
KATZ LASZLO
And I mean, at this point, people with loved ones all across the Middle East who are understandably probably feeling pretty scared right now.
KATY LEE
Yes, it's very surreal.
I think in times like this, the world both feels really small. And also, I feel like I'm living in a completely different universe. Like as the news was breaking out of the first US and Israeli strikes on Iran, I was 40 metres up in the sky trying out the new cable car in the Paris suburbs.
KATZ LASZLO
What a contrast.
KATY LEE
Yeah, it was completely silent. And I was just admiring the views of my family.
And it is a really different reality from what a lot of people are living right now, for which I feel very, very fortunate. But it's also less far away than it seems, you know, at the time of recording Cyprus, an EU country, has been targeted with drone strikes. This affects all of us.
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah. And I just can't imagine how weird it is if you have family in any of the places being targeted right now to be walking around like in that day to day reality of people just busy with completely different things in Paris, in Amsterdam, wherever. And at the same time, watching these alerts come in on your phone, I mean, awful.
KATY LEE
We were actually hoping to bring you a conversation this week with an Iranian guest. And that was planned even before the strike started. It was going to be a much wider conversation than talking about war.
He is understandably focussing on getting news from friends and family right now, but he's an amazing person to talk to. So I very much hope that we'll be able to speak to him further down the line.
KATZ LASZLO
Yes, me too.
In the meantime, if you are trying to wrap your head around what is going on, I can recommend a documentary from Arte, which is the French-German streaming platform. And they have a documentary that came out this year about Iranians in Europe. And it really helped me wrap my head around the different dynamics going on between Iranian Europeans across the continent and how that comes together and also sometimes clashes.
I found that really helpful to understand a bit about what's going on.
KATY LEE
We'll put a link for that in the show notes.
KATZ LASZLO
In the meantime, strange transition, but what are we talking about this week?
KATY LEE
Well, we do have an interview this week that I hope people might find helpful in the very strange times that we're living in. Nori Spauwen is a recovering Dutch diplomat and author of a book that feels very relevant right now. In English, the title translates as Action! How to Save the World Without Losing Yourself. It's about trying to do good and trying to stay informed without going crazy. So we're going to be talking to Nori a bit later.
We are also going to be talking about a couple of other things that are either distracting or worthy of your attention in a very different way, namely a step forward for abortion rights across the EU and Yanis Varoufakis, the maverick former Greek finance minister who is facing drug charges, apparently dating back to the time that he tried ecstasy about four decades ago. What is going on there? You'll be finding out in just a second in Good Week, Bad Week.
[MUSIC]
KATZ LASZLO
Katy, who has had a good week?
KATY LEE
Well, this is the segment of this week's show that is brought to you in collaboration with our radio friends at Euranet Plus. And I'm going to give my good week to the organisers of the My Voice, My Choice campaign.
If you've got sharp ears, you might remember me talking about this initiative ages ago. My Voice, My Choice is a campaign that was launched in Slovenia back in 2024 and it was a campaign aimed at improving women's access to safe abortions across Europe.
As you probably all know, abortion is one of these things where there's still a really stark difference in the law across Europe, ranging from here in France, where the right to abortion is enshrined in the constitution, to countries like Malta and Poland, where it remains incredibly restricted.
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah, I remember learning on the show about Malta. I didn't know that until we talked about it.
KATY LEE
Yeah, I mean, in Malta, abortion is still only allowed when the mother's life is in danger.
KATZ LASZLO
Oh my God.
KATY LEE
Poland also, I mean, Poland's Prime Minister Donald Tusk promised abortion reform when he came to power in 2023. Again, there is a near total ban in place dating back to the previous populist government. That promised reform to this law still hasn't happened, largely because it is seen as a political impossibility, given that the governing coalition is itself divided over abortion. And in any case, the conservative president has said that he would veto it.
KATZ LASZLO
Wow.
Wasn't that like a large part of why Tusk was even elected in the first place, was protests around this?
KATY LEE
Yes. Yes, it was.
KATZ LASZLO
Perfect. All right. Please continue, Katy.
KATY LEE
I mean, anecdotally, we know that a lot of women travel from countries like Malta and Poland to elsewhere in Europe to get access to abortion. The data is extremely patchy, but according to Exporting Abortion, which is a cross-border journalistic investigation, it looks to be somewhere in the realm of about 5,000 women a year. And generally, they have to cover the expenses of getting there and getting it done themselves.
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah, there's actually quite a lot of especially Polish women who come to the Netherlands because our laws make it possible to have an abortion a bit later so that women actually have time to like find out that they're pregnant and then travel and get an appointment and all of that. And I mean, there's like a lot of amazing people volunteering for various NGOs to support these women, both financially and with things like picking people up from the airport and like taking them somewhere where they can rest. But as impressive as that network of support is, you just kind of wish that like the health care system would just cover this care.
Like it's a bit wild that it's dependent on random people who've realised how urgent and dire the position of pregnant women is in a volunteering.
KATY LEE
Yeah, it shouldn't have to rely on something as ad hoc as a volunteering network. So the idea behind My Voice, My Choice is to address this.
It's a pretty clever idea. These campaigners were like, okay, abortion law is not something that is covered by the EU. Countries can make their own policy on abortion.
But can we try and get creative with the machinery of the EU to try and get better abortion access for women in places like Malta and Poland? And the clever idea that they came up with is this. What if we set up a system where we could get women who need abortions in countries like Malta? What if we could get those women to another EU country where people are allowed to safely legally terminate a pregnancy, and we can create a system where the countries providing that care get financial support from the EU, so that the women don't have to bear the cost themselves. Volunteers aren't relied on to provide the network that actually makes that happen. Is this a feasible workaround for the fact that some countries still have really restrictive laws on this, and those laws are not looking likely to change anytime soon?
Quite a clever idea, no?
KATZ LASZLO
It is. Tell me more.
KATY LEE
So once the campaigners came up with this nifty idea, how did they go about trying to turn it into a reality? Well, they launched something called a European Citizens’ Initiative. And this is where I turn into a mean teacher, and I give you a surprise test, Katz.
Do you remember what a European Citizens Initiative is?
KATZ LASZLO
I would know, but I always wanted to make a special episode about this. It's like, okay, this is embarrassing, probably now we're going to proceed to get it wrong.
But my understanding is that it's like a large petition where if you get a million signatures from European citizens, then the European Commission has to consider proposing a law about that subject, right?
KATY LEE
Very good. Yeah, pretty much.
Yeah, it's like a special...
KATZ LASZLO
This podcast has left me changed.
KATY LEE
Turned you into even more of a nerd than you were already. Well done, us.
Yeah, it's basically a special kind of turbo-powered petition. And what it means is that indeed, if you can collect a million signatures for your petition, and you can jump through a bunch of other hoops, including having met the threshold for a minimum number of votes in at least seven countries, if you can do all of that, the European Commission must consider legislating on the thing that your petition is about or otherwise acting upon it.
They might end up not acting on it, but they have to show that they have seriously considered whether the EU should have new legislation or a new policy on the thing that your super petition was asking for.
KATZ LASZLO
Isn't one of the only successful European Citizens Initiatives, like a really early one, was from an anti-abortion group, no?
KATY LEE
Yeah, it was called One of Us.
And interestingly enough, it was calling for an EU ban and end to the financing of activities which, quote unquote, presuppose the destruction of human embryos, in particular in the areas of research, development aid and public health. It did manage to get all the signatures required, but the European Commission ultimately decided not to follow it up with any kind of policy change or any kind of new legislation.
KATZ LASZLO
Okay, but this much newer campaign, the My Voice, My Choice one, presumably they also managed to get a million signatures, or you wouldn't be giving them Good Week, right?
KATY LEE
Yes, they did. So the million mark was reached really quite early in the process, all the way back in December 2024, but that was far from being the end of the journey. For months afterwards, they still had to plot on trying to get more signatures in certain countries to meet these minimum thresholds in seven countries.
They did that, and they formally submitted the petition to the European Commission in August last year. They met with the Commission, and the momentum kept on building, because in December, the European Parliament voted in support of My Voice, My Choice, which wasn't necessarily something that was going to force the Commission to agree with it, but it was helpful. You know, this was Europe's elected parliament saying, we support this, you should too.
Then, last week, plot twist, the My Voice, My Choice organisers heard, off the record, that the European Commission's formal decision was going to go against bringing this in as EU policy.
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah, I heard that too, so I was quite surprised when you suggested this Good Week.
KATY LEE
Yeah, cue this last-minute, all-hands-on-deck flurry of final campaigning, trying to convince the European Commission to change its mind about this.
The big day finally comes. Thursday last week, the Commission is due to announce whether it is going to agree to the demands of this petition, given this huge wave of activism it's generated, given that they've managed to get the Parliament on board. Are they really going to look at all of this and say, nah, I don't think so?
The big moment arrives. The decision is announced.
KATZ LASZLO
Oh my god, and?
KATY LEE
And they back it! The campaigners win!
KATZ LASZLO
Oh my god, the drama!
KATY LEE
The European Commission announces that EU money can be used to help women travel from countries like Malta to get abortion care in countries that allow for safe and legal terminations. Hooray!
KATZ
Wow.
KATY LEE
Are you ready for the slightly deflating admin side of the story? Oh my god, this is a classic European move, a deflating admin moment, Katy!
KATY LEE
Always. So the campaigners had ideally wanted the European Commission to come back saying, we love this idea and we're going to give you money for this. We will create a permanent funding mechanism that reimburses the countries that provide the abortions for providing that care, I guess via their social security systems or something like that. That is not what happened last Thursday.
So what the Commission actually said was, it is okay with us if EU countries want to get funding for this via an existing pot of money called, drumroll, the European Social Fund Plus, otherwise known as ESF Plus. Very catchy, I know.
KATZ LASZLO
Why do they love the pluses so much?
KATY LEE
We love a plus. ESF Plus is a huge, very broad pot of money. Its budget over six years is more than 142 billion euros.
And you can get money from this pot for a really, really broad range of projects in your country. Stuff to support people getting back into employment, education projects. It has, and this is kind of crucial, it has also been used for projects that are related to healthcare.
Even though national governments are the ones primarily in charge of running their own healthcare systems, the EU still has a health policy and it does try to do its bit in terms of supporting the creation of a healthy Europe, let's say. For example, there are initiatives paid for already out of this pot of money that provide financial support for training healthcare workers or creating new services for people with disabilities. So there was something of a precedent for this fund to be used for health-related stuff. But we now have confirmation that this health-related stuff can include providing abortions for women from countries like Malta and Poland.
Now, some of the more negative Norberts have said that really all the Commission has done is to say, yeah, I guess you can apply for some money from this thing that already exists. Be our guest.
And that's not really much of a victory. I mean, this is notably the narrative that some far-right members of the European Parliament have been pushing, as well as anti-abortion groups in various countries. They're saying that this isn't a win for abortion campaigners.
I would argue, and the campaigners have argued, that what's just happened is a big deal. OK, there hasn't been any dedicated money put aside for this. But the European Commission has just confirmed that EU money can be used to provide safe abortions for people who cannot access them in EU countries where the national governments have made it impossible.
That is a really big deal. And of course, it's not just a symbolically big deal. It's also, in practical terms, it means more women are not going to feel alone on this.
They're going to feel like there is someone there to help them.
KATZ LASZLO
I will take it as a win.
KATY LEE
You know, nearly half a million unsafe abortions still take place in Europe every year, according to the World Health Organisation.
KATZ LASZLO
That breaks my heart.
KATY LEE
Yeah, I mean, many of these are women who can't afford to bear the cost of travelling to somewhere where they could do it safely and legally. Of course, there are many other reasons as well.
But the fact is that unsafe abortions can be really dangerous, depending on how they're done. So if you can use EU money to get women who find themselves contemplating this to a place where they can do it safely, that is a heck of a lot of people that you are making safer in practical terms.
Now, we do need to be realistic. Not everyone will be able to make use of it. There still need to be the initiatives set up using this EU fund to make it a reality. And even then, I'm sure there will be many people who feel like they can't use it for any number of reasons. You know, for example, because they're worried about being found out by people around them.
But it does still feel like a step forward for making this care something that is accessible to people in corners of Europe where it currently isn't.
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah, I think the thing that frustrates me about this subject is like while this debate carries on and there's just like a bunch of people having to make choices that whole time.
And the debate has become so politicised that it often doesn't really feel like it matches the reality of pregnancy.
KATY LEE
Yeah.
KATZ LASZLO
It winds up being this debate about whether you are anti-abortion or pro the right to choose. And meanwhile, if you don't have access to abortion, there is no such thing as a safe pregnancy because you need really similar care depending on whether you have a miscarriage or medical complications or if you choose to have an abortion.
The other thing that always strikes me in this debate is like we frame it as if it's a choice, but there is no contraception that works 100% even if you use it perfectly. And so it's always going to be the case that some people will get pregnant even if they're trying really hard not to. And I just feel like a lot of the political debate just doesn't reflect any of that.
KATY LEE
Yeah, it stops being about your life and starts being about politics instead. I wanted to play you a clip from our friends at Euradio in Nantes. They're also part of Euranet Plus, this radio network that we're part of. They had an interview with the member of the European Parliament who was the rapporteur of the parliament's vote on this. That essentially means she was the point person on it. Her name is Abir Al-Sahlani. She's an Iraqi-born Swedish MEP. And this is what she had to say.
[CLIP: “This is giving back the power to women. It's not about the doctor to decide. It's not up to their conscience. It's offering women protection when they're being discriminated because a politician thinks that a woman should not be deciding on her own womb and what she wants to carry in her own body or not. This is about taking away the power from men who think that they are privileged to that power to decide that we are just, you know, giving birth to new Europeans because we have a demographic challenge. So it is about power, giving back power to women where it belongs to begin with.”]
KATY LEE:
Al-Sahlani was a big supporter of this initiative and is absolutely delighted by the result. This is obviously not the reaction of everyone in Europe. The aforementioned anti-abortion groups are obviously deeply unhappy about this. Another fellow Euranet Plus member, the Portuguese radio station Renascença, they had an interview with the head of an anti-abortion group, the Federação Portuguesa pela Vida, describing this decision as facilitating abortion tourism. So it's interesting, I mean, these groups are both trying to paint this decision as a defeat for the My Voice, My Choice campaign while also being deeply annoyed by it.
I also saw that the Italian anti-abortion group Pro Vita e Família, they were calling on the Italian government not to use funding from the European Social Fund Plus to support this kind of work. I can't imagine that the Meloni government is going to be jumping at the chance to fund cross-border abortions in this way.
KATZ LASZLO
No, I can't imagine they're suddenly like, oh, cancel everything.
KATY LEE
Let's put some effort into this. But it is a good point. The ability of this initiative to succeed now depends on certain countries deciding to use money this way.
Most of the money distributed by this pot is distributed by national governments. So supportive governments need to get on this. I would hope that they would include the French government given that this is the only country in Europe where we have constitutionally enshrined the right to abortion.
But it really does depend on governments, yeah, getting off their arses and making this happen.
KATZ LASZLO
Let’s see if they do.
KATY LEE
Before we move on, because I really want to talk about Yanis Varoufakis, I just want to say what an amazing campaign the My Voice, My Choice people ran.
This wasn't just about having an idea that people wanted to get behind. I mean, it was about that, of course. But it was also about this incredible, relentless, really well-organised campaigning.
Like, I had friends here in Paris giving out stickers for people to plaster all over the toilets of bars and the backs of people's phones. So like old-school campaigning. But primarily, this was an amazing online campaign.
My Voice, My Choice have a million followers on Instagram. And their page has just been constantly throwing good memes at people for months and months and months.
Belle de Jong, who's a Dutch journalist who was heavily involved in the campaign in Malta. She actually lives in Malta. And a few years ago, she became the first woman ever to speak on Maltese national TV about her experience of having an abortion.
KATZ LASZLO
In Malta?
KATY LEE
No, she went home to the Netherlands to actually have the abortion. Precisely because it would have been impossible in Malta.
KATZ LASZLO
Wow, that is really major.
KATY LEE
But she got flooded with messages from Maltese women after going on TV saying, thank you for talking about this publicly. She also got a lot of hateful messages calling her a baby killer. Belle has pointed out that the online element made it a lot easier for people to join in and get involved, particularly in Malta, where there is still a huge amount of social stigma around abortion.
You know, even if you do support abortion rights, there is a very good chance that you're not going to want to join a street protest about it if you're in Malta. So the online element of this also made it something that many, many more people could get involved with.
I think this is a good week for the campaigners. I also think it's a good week for European citizens initiatives as a thing. You know, a lot of them never get anywhere. This one did, thanks to people power.
And I think that should be celebrated.
KATZ LASZLO
Hooray for European citizens initiatives. And also, it feels like a small moment where there's still like a bright corner of the internet where people are finding each other to talk about something and feel a bit less alone and something that's maybe a bit scary.
KATY LEE
Absolutely.
KATZ LASZLO
That makes me happy. A small positive corner of the internet.
KATY LEE
Before we move on, I wanted to flag a couple of other European citizens initiatives that are worth reading up on a bit if you're interested in how they work and the ones that do look like they might get somewhere. One is called Stop Destroying Video Games. Wojciech talked about it last summer after it managed to pass a million signatures.
That one is about stopping video games companies from taking them down after you've paid for them. That is a thing. So it's geeky, but it is something that people feel absolutely outraged about.
And yeah, they have the signatures. And the European Commission now has to respond to that one by the middle of the year.
KATZ LASZLO
I love a policy suggestion that's about something that's just really annoying.
KATY LEE
But these are the things that people care about.
KATZ LASZLO
It's my fave. For the love of God, don't make me have a customer service robot.
KATY LEE
On a more serious note, another one that might be on your radar is the European Citizens Initiative calling for a ban on conversion practises. These initiatives of trying to turn queer people straight.
KATZ LASZLO
It's amazing how often that still happens.
KATY LEE
[Sarcastic.] It’s like, if we just talk to them hard enough, maybe they'll change their minds. Again, this one has managed to get the necessary signatures and the European Commission will need to come up with an official response this year. As I say, these are three out of many, many petitions that go nowhere.
And a lot of them go nowhere because they're not very good, frankly. But I feel like the fact that we have had three in the space of not that many months that have been getting a lot of momentum and attention and have reached more than a million signatures. That feels like a modest democratic win to me.
And I'm all for modest democratic wins at the moment.
KATZ LASZLO
A campaign slogan if ever I heard one.
KATY LEE
Who has had a bad week, Katz?
KATZ LASZLO
It has been a bad week for Yanis Varoufakis, who among other things, was briefly Greece's finance minister in 2015. Do you remember him, Katy?
KATY LEE
Yanis Varoufakis. How could I forget? Yeah, I was in Greece in 2015 covering some of the fallout of the financial crisis and the Greek bailouts. So yeah, his was a voice I heard a lot.
KATZ LAZSLO
I’m sure you have. Well, this week he is back in media attention because he has been called in for prosecution after talking on a podcast about taking an ecstasy pill once, 36 years ago.
KATY LEE
Absolutely wild, this story. What exactly is he charged with?
KATZ LASZLO
He has been charged with, quote, inciting others for the illegal use of narcotics. I will let him tell you more in this clip.
[CLIP: “This morning, two policemen appeared on my doorstep, ordering me to the police headquarters to be interrogated by the Greek DEA, our drug-busting police department, under the charge of aiding and abetting the narco-mafia.”]
KATZ LASZLO
If he loses, he faces fines of up to 60,000 euros.
KATY LEE
Wow.
KATZ LASZLO
And at least six months in prison.
KATY LEE
Jesus, okay. And how did this come about?
KATZ LASZLO
So on a podcast in January of this year, it was about questions affecting young people. And he was asked if he had ever taken drugs. And he answered, honestly, that he had taken ecstasy once during a Kylie Minogue concert in 1989.
KATY LEE
I love that.
KATZ LASZLO
Which I think is a very important detail for this journalism. But yeah, like, watch out podcast guests. It is a very dangerous business that we are in.
KATY LEE
Oh my God, I'm now mentally going through our back catalogue and trying to think of whether I've admitted to doing anything illegal. I think I'm in the clear. But what exactly did Varoufakis say on this podcast?
Like, was it very incriminating?
KATZ LASZLO
So Yanis basically said he did not want to pull a Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton famously said he did not inhale when he was asked about using marijuana in 1992.
This man is a seriously bad liar. And so Yanis wanted to do this a bit differently. And he said, I did inhale. He went on to say it was initially an amazing experience. He danced for like 15 hours straight.
KATY LEE
To Kylie.
KATZ LASZLO
Exactly. I just really think we should emphasise the Kylie aspect of the story. But then afterwards, he was out for a week with migraines.
And so he said he decided to never use it again.
KATY LEE
Very sensible Yanis. And let's be clear here.
Like, as you've already alluded to with Clinton, Varoufakis is not the first public figure to have ever publicly admitted experimenting with recreational drug use.
KATZ LASZLO
No, plenty of people have made jokes about smoking pot, for example, across the globe, including Greek public figures like the former mayor of Athens. But no one has ever been charged yet, which arguably gives some legitimacy to Varoufakis' reaction that this is a political move, that it's about the far right wanting to silence him.
One of Greece's most prominent drug abuse experts has backed him up on this, saying that this case really does not meet the criteria for promotion of drugs. And it deserves no public interest.
KATY LEE
Right. Like, he wasn't saying like, you should all do this, kids. It's great. He said, like, he did have fun, but then he got a really bad headache. That doesn't really seem like promotion to me.
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah. And I remember actually, like, one of my teachers at school, when we learned about drugs, he told us, like, one of the reasons people use drugs is because it's fun. But also, here are all of these negative side effects. And honestly, I think that was way better drug education than like, not admitting that there are reasons why people take them.
KATY LEE
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But sorry, you said that the drug abuse expert said that we shouldn't give it any public interest. Should we be talking about it right now? Stop it. Shush. Okay, we'll just wrap up this segment very quickly.
Seriously, though, this whole idea of the far right wanting to squash Varoufakis, I have to confess I've kind of lost track of Varoufakis' political role. I've seen him on Instagram cultivating this kind of public intellectual kind of figure. But like, what role is he playing in politics these days?
KATZ LASZLO
Indeed, he is saying a lot of different things that are getting very popular on Instagram.
But in terms of politics, his left-wing party, MeRA25, just fell short of making it into parliament in the summer of 2023. But both the party and Varoufakis are increasingly popular with a young generation of Greeks who are disillusioned with establishment politics. Since Varoufakis has been called to court, his party has accused the current centre-right government of targeting him for political reasons.
And, well, I don't know what the intentions of the Greek government are. But in a world where plenty of people with significantly more power and significantly more evidence of criminal activity in the past few weeks alone have not been arrested, it's difficult to wrap our heads around why, of all problems out there, police and court resources would be spent on this. Just thinking about all of the cases that could be held against people and politicians right now.
KATY LEE
You're not by any chance talking about the Epstein files, are you?
KATZ LASZLO
Perhaps. Among other things, Katy.
Anyway, this is what the Greek government is currently spending some resources on. And so it is a bad week for Varoufakis.
KATY LEE
Yeah, it's so frustrating.
I'll admit it, I find him to be quite an abrasive figure. Although I do sometimes find myself agreeing with him and I find clips of him ranting about something that's come on my Instagram feed.
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah, I have seen him say quite interesting things about the patriarchy as well recently.
So, yeah, I don't know. He's got some things to say.
KATY LEE
I did love, though, there was a headline that really made me laugh in Politico a few months ago that said something like, everyone hated Varoufakis, says former Greek PM Alexis Tsipras.
KATZ LASZLO
God, what a book to publish.
KATY LEE
Well, let's just say around 2015, there were some big characters in Greek politics. I'm sure.
Anyway, whatever you think about the guy, this does not feel deserved and it does not feel like a good use of limited public resources. Do better, Greek police.
KATZ LASZLO
Oh, no, it really doesn't.
[MUSIC]
KATZ LASZLO
Now, we've been having conversations for years with people about how few independent pan-European journalism outlets there are out there. And in nine years, Katy, I think we could give a pretty extensive workshop about why that is.
KATY LEE
If you want to pay us to do that workshop, by the way, go ahead.
KATZ LASZLO
A million euros, please. Anyway, one of the reasons is that it is incredibly difficult for us to get structural funding. For a long time, the only support we could get was project-based, meaning that we could only get support for special narrative and investigative series.
But the reason we had a listenership in the first place was because we had this weekly show. And I think that's more precious than people realise. Anyone can upload an MP3 file to the internet and have a podcast, which is awesome. But it takes a while to build a listenership that trusts you and that you're not just screaming into the void.
Loads of foundations don't fund something that you have already built on free labour, even though I would argue that the fact that people have decided to listen is proof that it is valuable.
Another problem we ran against is that national journalism funds often only support projects made in the language of that country. And so even if we have a solid chunk of listeners from any one country, we couldn't get funding unless we produced it in like a tonne of different languages.
KATY LEE
Should we just start doing this in German?
KATZ LASZLO
Oh, God, give me seven years in German classes first.
KATY LEE
Well, there was an idea at some point to like, I don't know, use AI to translate the Europeans or something. And it would be cool to have it in every language, obviously, in terms of like making this podcast accessible to people all across the continent, not just those who speak English. But it would also be a logistical nightmare to produce and super expensive.
KATZ LASZLO
Yes, exactly. Yeah, another issue is that a lot of institutions have taken some time to consider podcasting a serious form of journalism.
KATY LEE
Yeah, which is so frustrating because there are like massive podcasts gaining audiences.
And then, oh, look, legacy newspapers, mysteriously struggling to attract young people.
KATZ LASZLO
Exactly. And in the meantime, we've interviewed a lot of people about things that probably wouldn't have aired on their national broadcasters.
And as our democracies feel more and more fragile, it becomes more acute, how valuable the resilience is of having a team where you have people spread across different countries, like the Freedom of Press series that Wojciech made with Hungarian and Bulgarian journalists. They could make that like even living in their own countries because we could just publish it somewhere else.
All this to say, we didn't get any funding to support the weekly show for like seven years until our current two-year partnership with Euranet. And it doesn't cover all of our costs, nor do we know if it will be extended beyond that two-year period, so after this December.
And so individual donations remain our best source of independence.
We can't believe how many people are supporting us right now.
KATY LEE
It's amazing.
KATZ LASZLO
It really is.
The latest people to join that we'd like to thank are Katarina, Ivanaho, Sue Ellen, Elsa, Joe, Sudo Anka, and thank you to Lisa and Gio for increasing.
KATY LEE
Thank you all so, so much. If you would like to join these wonderful people, you can find us at patreon.com/europeanspodcast. You can also donate directly via our website.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE
Time for the interview part of the show and Dominic is back, if only briefly. Hi, Dominic.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yes, hi, Katy. I was meant to be having a week off, but honestly, I actually need this podcast to help me process what's going on in the world. And yeah, there's been a lot going on in the world this week.
It's been a scary week.
KATY LEE
It sure has. Yeah, we're recording this a few days after Trump and Netanyahu launched their joint attack on Iran and we are now in the midst of an escalating wave of violence across the Middle East.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, and it's even spilled over into Europe, at least in a small way. The British Air Force base on Cyprus has been the target of multiple strikes, allegedly from Iran or Hezbollah.
KATY LEE
And we have, of course, been grappling here with how to discuss this developing conflict as a podcast about Europe.
And as we mentioned at the top of the show, we did have a guest lined up who is an Iranian person living in Europe, but totally understandably, they decided it was too stressful a time to be giving a public interview, which we absolutely respect. And it meant that we decided at the last minute to push forward an interview that we actually planned for a few weeks' time. But we hope that you'll agree, it's also very timely.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Yeah, we're going to be having a chat with someone I actually met a few years ago at the Homo monument, a monument in the centre of Amsterdam that commemorates LGBTQ+people who have been persecuted. I remember meeting her and she told me, oh, I'm writing a book about how to stay sane whilst trying to do good in the world. And I immediately thought, I need to read this book and we need to get her on the show.
So two years later, that book is finished. It's only in Dutch so far, unfortunately, but maybe someone listening wants to translate it. It's called Actie! or Action!, How to Save the World without losing yourself.
Nori has had a really interesting career. She describes herself as a writer, a political philosopher and a quote unquote recovering diplomat. She worked for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the Netherlands and at the UN where she defended LGBTQI rights.
But she's here today, hopefully to help us all out, to help guide us through a world that has felt pretty scary lately, especially over the past week. How do we avoid giving in to despair? How do we fight back without losing ourselves?
These are some of the questions we're going to be asking her today. Nori was travelling and spoke to us from Barcelona.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So nice you could join us today, Nori. Thank you for being here.
NORI SPAUWEN:
Good morning.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I mean, especially in a week like this when so many people, myself included, feel pretty overwhelmed and despairing about the state of the world right now. But you have dedicated your career to figuring out how to change the world for the better without losing yourself in the process. So before we dive into those solutions, I thought it might be nice to start by hearing a bit about your own story. When did you first realise you were losing yourself in activism? And what effect did that have on you?
NORI SPAUWEN:
Well, I think at first I lost myself, but in a good way. So I worked for a number of years as a human rights lobbyist at the UN, specifically for LGBTIQ plus people, which was an amazing job. Because, for example, in that time, Uganda was trying to reinstate the death penalty for homosexuality. And we could really influence those detrimental developments. And I felt so inspired and so passionate about that work. So I did lose myself, but I did not think it was a bad thing back then. But then things took a turn. Well, then things turned sour, not immediately. Then I thought, maybe I can have more impact if I myself am a diplomat, because we were trying to influence diplomats. And I thought, maybe if I am sitting on that seat, I can change the world even more. So I became a diplomat for the Kingdom of the Netherlands for a number of years. I worked within the Ministry of Foreign Affairs there. And we were gaining a lot of momentum. But with that momentum also came the pushback, the resistance from the institutional fossils.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
The system.
NORI SPAUWEN:
The system, exactly. And because I was the face of that movement, a lot of that was pointed at me. On the one side, it gave me the feeling like, I am so needed. This is so urgent. But on the other side, it was also starting to really weigh on me. And then I think I felt that I was already very tired from all those years, like over a decade, pushing for change. And one day I realised, oh, I am in a very severe burnout, and I can hardly lift my arm. So that was a really hard break. And a very clear message from, I think, my own system, my body and my soul, if you will, that keep pushing sometimes is too hard and you lose yourself there.
KATY LEE:
How did you go about repairing yourself after realising that?
NORI SPAUWEN:
Well, it was really hard because I was so addicted to making a difference and working with other people and being in the mix. And then all of a sudden, you're on your own, on a couch, and you're not making any impact. It was a very humbling, but also very grounding experience.
KATY LEE:
I mean, most of us are not diplomats. We don't work as human rights lobbyists. We're not moving in those corridors of power with the pressures that that brings. But it is easy just as like an ordinary person reading the news, trying to be engaged with the world and trying to make it better to feel paralysed by the sheer number of crises. You know, we've got the climate crisis. We've got the democratic crisis, inequality. Last week, we were talking about the care crisis on this podcast. How can we stop ourselves from looking away? How do we stay engaged without burning out?
NORI SPAUWEN:
This is, I think, the million dollar question that I have been trying to answer ever since. So I think this was back in 2019 when the world was quite different. So when I told people I was writing a book on healthy action, on being engaged in a healthy way, people were like, oh, that's cute. You know, that's nice for that little niche that you're in, those activists that want to change the world. And I think ever since, we have seen that taking care of the world is not something that just a very small group should do. And I think nowadays, in 2026, just existing in the world is already almost so stressful that you could get a burnout just from reading the news. So this is very, very hard. And I have developed some techniques for that, but it's not something that I have like an answer to. I'm like, oh, this is how you do it.
KATY LEE:
The three-step plan!
NORI SPAUWEN:
And then we can all go home.
KATY LEE:
We all know that doomscrolling is not healthy, but ignoring the news feels irresponsible. And at the same time, you know, when terrible things are happening slightly further away as they are right now in the Middle East, it is easy to read about what's happening and think, oh, great, I feel informed now, but I also feel utterly powerless. Do you have any practical tips for how to consume news in a way that keeps us informed, but also sane?
NORI SPAUWEN:
Specifically on this question about staying informed, for me, it's also about staying human.
So if something really bad happens, this weekend, a girls' school was bombed. So I prefer to read that news and be really sad for 10 minutes than reading about it for five hours, knowing all the details and not feeling anything. So letting it touch you, for me, is much more important than knowing all the details.
KATY LEE:
But there are a lot of sad things. So if you let them all touch you, what's going to happen to your head and your heart?
NORI SPAUWEN:
So what I really do also is put boundary on a news consumption. So scrolling is always a bad idea.So I have two or three quality newspapers. I will open the app once or twice a day. And when I feel that I'm reading something for the second time, then I know, okay, now I know everything. And then if something is really sad, then I'm also sad because that's the reality.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
You also have your own podcast, it’s a podcast about resistance. And I guess resistance can also be inspiring, right? Both on a big and small scale. What are some of the acts of resistance inspiring you right now?
NORI SPAUWEN:
I think the people of Iran are very inspiring, and they are showing us so much courage. The people in Minneapolis, people who are really going in the streets and putting their bodies on the line for what they care about, I think that's the highest form of action. It's not something that we have to always do. But I really think putting your body on the line and just going to protests now and then, connecting with all those people there. I was in Amsterdam. We had a March for Gaza. We had a quarter million people. To be there and share that space with people
Oh, definitely. Because I think there is something to do for everyone. So if you're a big introvert and you don't like crowds, please do not go to a protest, right? There is so much to do with that stereotype of the activist who is someone with a megaphone in front of parliament. We've really made it so, so narrow. But healthy movements, they have artists, they have singers, they have poets, they have people who crunch the numbers, they have people who have logistic talents. Once you accept and really lean into your own super talent, then it also starts to be really fun and really effortless. And taking action can also be very small. So it can also be taking action with your neighbours to plant more trees in your street. So it's not always going to parliament, having your megaphone and shouting at whoever's in charge there. You're initiating something in the world that will be a partial solution to these very grand problems that we have in the world.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I don't actually have the study in front of me, but I've been told by someone before, maybe it was by you even, that people who take action are happier in general. There are studies.
NORI SPAUWEN:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also something that you can kind of train your nervous system. So when I'm doomscrolling, which I definitely also do, say I see a horrible video coming from Gaza, my brain will respond to that as if I'm there. Actually, my nervous system will go into shock. If I stay lying on the couch, which I'm normally doing when I'm doomscrolling, my body will think that I'm not reacting to the danger. But if I come into action and just take the tiniest action, maybe it's like donating 10 euros to Doctors Without Borders. Then I train my nervous system that actually, yes, a bad thing happened, but I can do something about it. So I will also make myself feel a bit more empowered again. I think what's happened now with the developments in the world going so fast and all the information being available to us on this little thing and this computer, it's like we have been kidnapped. All we can do is look at all these horrible things that are happening, but we actually are not an active participant in that. And I think that's a very traumatising state to be in. So what I spoke about before, like letting things touch me and then I take a very small action. And it could also be making tea for my girlfriend. Because it's an action, I'm doing something for someone else and I'm connecting with someone. So I'm retraining my brain, basically, that yes, bad things happen in the world, but I am a person, I'm a human being, I can do something about it and I'm not alone.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Nori's book opens with a beautiful quote from Jane Goodall, you know, the brilliant British primatologist who sadly died last year. She said, “You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you. What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
I found that very beautiful. And in general, I find Nori's call for action quite inspirational.
KATY LEE
I really like the central point she makes that, you know, a lot of us don't think of ourselves as activists, or maybe we have a funny relationship with that word.
But that doesn't mean that you can't affect the world around you through the decisions that you make and how you spend your time.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Absolutely. If you speak Dutch, go get a copy of her book Actie!
You can also listen to the new bi-weekly podcast she's making for De Correspondent. It's called Frisetje. In their most recent episode, Nori has a great bit on comparing Trump's language to the language of the dystopian, totalitarian regime in George Orwell's novel 1984, you know, about how words start to lose their meaning and sometimes even a word even starts to have like an opposite meaning.
And she uses the example of Trump's so-called Board of Peace, which could be seen as essentially being a board of war.
KATY LEE
That is very Orwellian, isn't it? I wish I spoke Dutch.
I'd love to listen to that. But maybe I'll play with the subtitles on. I can kind of follow Dutch subtitles.
DOMINIC KRAEMER
Well, give it a try and report back.
KATY LEE
I will. Thanks for joining us Dominic.
Back to singing for you. We'll see you next week.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE
Let us chug into the Inspiration Station.
What have you got to recommend to people this week, Katz?
KATZ LASZLO
So what I wanted to recommend is a recipe, and I want to give a bit of context about that recipe. In Amsterdam, there is an amazing place called Mezrab, and it has many things.
It's got music. It's got theatre. But most of all, it's a storytelling house.
It was founded by various people, including Iranian Dutch storyteller Sahan SahebDivani and his family. And an iconic part of Mezrab was Saheb's mother, Parvin. I never spoke to her at length because she didn't speak much English, but she was like this amazing force with bright red hair and sparkly eyes.
And she would greet anyone who came in with these sparkly eyes. And Sahan would tell these hilarious stories about her, like that when he was a kid growing up, the sun would come out for like one day a year in Amsterdam and she would cycle on the wrong side of the road against the stream of traffic, which is absolutely not done. And so he'd be embarrassed that he would yell at her, like, please cycle on the right side of the road. And she would yell back, like, absolutely not. I have survived way worse than this. I am not going to the shady side of the road.
She passed away a few years ago, sadly, but she very much left her mark on this city. And one of the ways that she did that is she made this amazing Persian soup. It's called Ash Reshteh. And after many years of people wanting to know what was in it, at some point, Mezrab made a YouTube video of her cooking it. And like that week, a whole bunch of people were flooding to this one Iranian supermarket in the city centre and they were like running out of all the herbs that you need.
Anyway, this week, I wanted to share a video where she tells us how to make this soup.
It is amazing. It is so comforting and delicious. I can highly recommend. And you also even hear her singing. Yeah.
KATY LEE
Lovely.
KATZ LASZLO
What have you got for us, Katy?
KATY LEE
Well, I've been busy flying on the suburban Parisian cable car, so I haven't actually got any recommendations for you this week.
KATZ LASZLO
How long is this cable car, Katy?
KATY LEE
How long?
KATZ LASZLO
You seem to be putting a lot on it.
KATY LEE
It's the best fun you can have in Paris for two euros and five cents. It is amazing.
KATZ LASZLO
That does sound amazing.
KATY LEE
Well worth going to Crete for. But anyway, unless I can recommend that, which I'm not really sure I can, I'm going to borrow a recommendation from a listener.
C. Weichmann wrote to us on Mastadon to recommend the novel Die Erweiterung by the Austrian novelist Robert Menasse. It does exist in English in translation as The Capital, translated by Jamie Bullock.
[RECORD SCRATCHY NOISE]
KATY LEE
Hello, Katy here, coming to you a day after this podcast came out. I am sheepishly interrupting myself to say: I got two novels by Robert Menasse mixed up! The one that we’re recommending this week, Die Erweiterung, sadly does not exist in English translation yet. But it is apparently great. And like this other novel by Menasse which I mistakenly mentioned, The Capital – Die Haupstadt, in German – it is set in and around the Brussels bubble. I’m very sorry for the error. Alright, back to the podcast.
[RECORD SCRATCHY NOISE]
KATY LEE
C. Weichmann writes, It's all you want. Weird, awkward, funny European. They also write, I'd really like to hear from Albanians if he got it right.
Tiny spoiler, it revolves around Albania's accession to the European Union. So Albanians who've read this book, please write in. I'm also curious, though, if you feel well represented by this plotline and how it's handled.
This book has been on my radar for a long time, but I really needed a reminder to read it. Thank you, C. Weichmann. And if you've also got ideas for books or TV shows or films that you think other listeners to this podcast would love, do write in. I have two very small children. There is no way I can consume enough material to have new recommendations every week.
KATZ LASZLO
I was going to say, you do read a lot of books.
KATY LEE
I'm trying to read 12 a year, but short ones. Short books, people. Please write in. Short books, please.
[MUSIC]
KATZ LASZLO
Katy, I understand that you are going through renovations right now.
Is that correct?
KATY LEE
Yes. I don't really want to talk about it, but yes.
KATZ LASZLO
Yeah, it doesn't sound very fun. I have never had the responsibility of overseeing a renovation, thank God. But I did live in a 200-year-old house in a Catalan village, and it just didn't seem like the most relaxing activity.
And so I can understand why a lot of people would choose modern architecture. But some Catalan conservationists noticed that modern architecture means that a lot of little nooks and crannies are disappearing from our houses. And what that means is that the European little owl, who likes to hang out in little holes in old farmhouses, no longer has enough places to go, Katy.
KATY LEE
Oh, no. Will someone think of the owls?
KATZ LASZLO
Yes, I'm sorry for triggering you with the renovations theme.
KATY LEE
We have very much removed some owl nooks, and I feel bad now.
KATZ LASZLO
Exactly. Before we continue, I would like to lure you into looking at this owl.
KATY LEE
What's it called? The European Little Owl?
KATZ LASZLO
Can you see the link?
KATY LEE
I'm going to click on the link. Oh, so cute.
KATZ LASZLO
I know, isn't it lovely? Look at those eyes. Anyway, so all of these very smooth modern houses in rural areas are perhaps more relaxing for the people who own them. But not only do they arguably look a bit less charming, they're also just not very good homes for this little owl.
And so these two Catalan conservationist groups, Grup Naturalistes d'Ossena and Grup de Natura Esterna, they teamed up to design a special terracotta roof tile. And it's like specially designed to be more spacious. And it looks a little bit like your average terracotta roof tile.
But then it's actually like this tiny little penthouse for the European little owl.
KATY LEE
I love this.
KATZ LASZLO
I know, it's so very sweet.
Now, it's not technically news, they launched this tile last summer, but it just went viral and it made me very happy in an otherwise rather heavy week. And so I'm going with it anyway. You may remember I mentioned my love of owls a few weeks ago and how a lot of them are wearing like little trousers.
KATY LEE
Do these ones have little trousers?
KATZ LASZLO
I should say that these ones look more like they're wearing leggings or like cream coloured skinny jeans. But that aside, I am going with it.
Yay for little European owls and their little terracotta penthouses. Please go get one and tell us what it's like.
[MUSIC]
KATY LEE
We will be back next week.
Well, Dominic will be back in the hosting chair. Thanks a lot for filling in for him this week, Katz.
KATZ LASZLO
You're most welcome.
KATY LEE
In the meantime, you can find us on Instagram, YouTube, Macedon and Blue Sky. We also have a great newsletter about European politics and culture. It's called Good Week, Bad Week.
You should check it out. You can get it in your inbox every Friday.
KATZ LASZLO
I have absolutely nothing to do with the creation of it, and it's so good.
KATY LEE
Those two things are not connected. This week's show, which was also so good, was produced by our very own Katz Laszlo along with Wojciech Oleksiak. Thank you both so much.
KATZ LAZLO
You're very welcome. It was also produced using Hindenburg Pro, which is a European software, but it's one of the only audio softwares designed specifically for radio rather than music. They're very committed to accessibility, and we are very glad to be partnering with them.
KATY LEE
We love to be using European software. Have a nice week, Katz. Bye.
KATZ LASZLO
You too. Take care, everyone.