Hungary's plight, kids' rights, and Spargelzeit

29 May

Asparagus, lesbian family rights and Viktor Orbán’s latest power plays: like all good meals, this podcast episode is perfectly balanced. German food writer Ursula Heinzelmann joins us to explain the ‘Spargelzeit’ phenomenon that sees foodies going nutty for asparagus at this time of year. We’re also taking a look at LGBTQ rights in Italy and unpacking the Hungarian government’s plans to ‘starve and strangle’ civil society. Can Orbán be stopped?

You can find out more about Ursula’s work on her website and follow her on Instagram here.

If you have any spare cash this week, please consider donating to Hungarian civil society groups and independent media outlets before the planned passing of the ‘starve and strangle’ law in mid-June. UNITED for Intercultural Action, the NGO run by our former guest Philip Pollák, would be extremely grateful for your donations; you can also donate to any of the organisations on this list of Hungarian NGOs (get in touch if you have ideas of organisations to add to this list).

Inspiration Station recommendations:

Other resources for this episode:

The Convention on the Rights of the Child - United Nations, November 20, 1989
Sentenza 68/2025 (Italy’s constitutional court ruling on lesbian couples and IVF) - Corte Constituzionale - May 22, 2025
‘A Threat to the Core: Why the New Hungarian Transparency Bill is an Attack on the Foundations of the European Union’ - Verfassungsblog, May 21, 2025

Producers

Morgan Childs

Mixing and mastering

Wojciech Oleksiak

Music

Jim Barne and Mariska Martina

DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Hello and welcome to the Europeans, the podcast that stubbornly insists on looking at this sprawling continent as a thing, however messy that thing is. I'm Dominic Kraemer in Amsterdam, and I've got a Katy Lee down the line in Paris. How's life, Katy?
KATY LEE:
Life's good. I am freshly returned from a windswept weekend in Brittany. I'm feeling very refreshed, actually.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
You've got some of the nice sea air.
KATY LEE:
I did. It makes you sleep better. I don't know if it's scientifically proven, but I just I think it kind of tires you out and then you sleep better. Everybody should live by the sea.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Interesting. I'm skeptical of the science behind this, but sure.
KATY LEE:
Researchers, get out there and prove it. How are things in Amsterdam?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, here, everything's fine. It seems like the drought that everyone's been worrying about is slightly further away because it's been raining for the past week. So we're back to the like national tradition of cycling through the driving rain and turning up soaking wet to work every day.
KATY LEE:
Everything is as it should be.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Exactly. But yeah, otherwise, everything is fine with me. Shall we talk about what's coming up later on in the show, Katy?
KATY LEE:
Yeah, coming up this week, we promised you some food and that is what we are going to pour into your ears. It is Spargel season, the magical time of year when people in some parts of the continent, especially but not only Germany, get completely obsessed with eating asparagus.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I can't stop thinking about having an asparagus in my ear now.
KATY LEE:
Tickle tickle. Why do these tender little stalks ignite such passion in certain Europeans? Also, is there a dark side to this asparagus craze?
We've got a really fun interview coming up for you with the wonderful Ursula Heinzelmann, German food writer extraordinaire. But first, as always, it's Good Week, Bad Week.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, first, a little fact check. They're not all tender little stalks, Katy. Some of them are thick and juicy.
KATY LEE:
More on which later.
[GOOD WEEK, BAD WEEK THEME MUSIC]
KATY LEE:
Who has had a good week, Dominic?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
It's been a good week for lesbian parents in Italy after Italy's constitutional court ruled that in cases when female same-sex couples have used IVF abroad to have a child, the state must recognize both parents as legal parents, so also the woman who is not the biological mother.
KATY LEE:
Oh, for once, this sounds like it's actually a solid, straightforward Good Week. Yeah. Something we never have.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
You're welcome.
KATY LEE:
But you said it only applies to couples who've used IVF abroad. Why just those couples?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, that is because in Italy, you can only do IVF if you are a woman married to a man. Controversially, actually, single women also can't access IVF in Italy, and actually the constitutional court also ruled on that issue last week, saying that until there is legislation from Parliament to give single women access, it is not unconstitutional to withhold IVF access to single women.
KATY LEE:
Oh, that's a bummer.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
But yeah, the fact that lesbian couples can't access IVF in Italy isn't actually even that unusual in Europe. In most EU countries, you can at least access IVF if you have that money to spend at a private clinic as a lesbian couple, even if the public healthcare system doesn't cover it. In Italy, however, not only can you not access IVF at all as a lesbian couple, if you do go abroad and do it, up until recently, the non-biological mother would not be recognized by the state as a parent, which is no small thing that could cause serious problems.
Like, for example, with hospital visits, if your child gets sick. It creates problems with inheritance if the parent dies. And if the biological parent dies, there are also potentially really terrible consequences for the surviving family members. The only solution up until now in Italy was for the non-biological parent to adopt their child after birth, which is arguably a rather cruel thing to make a parent do in order to have any legal connection to their child. Also a process that just takes up a lot of time and doesn't just happen immediately.
KATY LEE:
Yeah, it sounds like some quite unnecessary and also stressful bureaucracy for new parents who are already juggling with this new life coming into their own lives. I'm interested to hear, though, what was the Italian constitutional court's reasoning for ruling in favor of the lesbian mothers? Like, what is the legal argument here?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
The constitutional court said that by denying full dual parenthood, the state was denying the child's right to maintain a balanced and continuous relationship with each of their parents, to receive care, education, instruction, and moral assistance from both, and to maintain significant relationships with the ascendants and relatives of each parental branch. Yes, that was my Google translation of some Italian legal text.
KATY LEE:
It's very pithy, I like it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yes, thank you. The court also said that the state was in violation of the constitutional principles of equality and personal identity. So it's a pretty big win for lesbian mothers in Italy.
KATY LEE:
We talked about this issue, or generally the problems facing lesbian moms in Italy, quite a while ago, I think, right? I think at the time, do I remember correctly, mayors had been registering the non-biological mother on birth certificates in some places, but then Giorgia Meloni's government forced them to stop doing that.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, well remembered, Katy. I think we discussed it back in 2023, and back then the mayor of Milan, a guy called Giuseppe Sala, was forced to comply with instructions from hardline conservative Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni that all councils stop registering both parents on a birth certificate. Meloni's government's instructions were actually based on their interpretation of a law that dates back to 2004. So yeah, it's important to know that she and her fellow members of the Brothers of Italy-led government didn't actually pass anything through the Italian parliament to make this change. Things actually got worse since we last talked about it in 2023. In other parts of Italy, including Padua and Lucca, public prosecutors’ offices actually started retroactively removing the name of the non-biological parent from the birth certificates of children with two mothers.
KATY LEE:
Horrible.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So this ruling from the Constitutional Court will bring a huge sigh of relief to rainbow families across Italy, but especially to the children and parents in families like this in Lucca and Padua. This case in the Constitutional Court was actually brought to the court by an LGBTI advocacy group called Rete Lenford, who were actually representing a lesbian couple in Lucca, who were one of those couples that were suffering from Meloni's government's decree. And it is now confirmed that the state was behaving in an unconstitutional manner.
So yeah, it's being seen as a big step forward for lesbian rights in Italy, a sign that Meloni's hardline government, who have relentlessly targeted the rights of LGBTQ+ people since coming to power, cannot get away with everything that is supposedly supporting their beloved so-called traditional family values.
KATY LEE:
Does this ruling mean anything for gay dads in Italy? Because, I mean, even if there is no provision for them in Italy, there must be gay fathers in Italy who have found ways to have children abroad and then move home with them.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, it's really not a good week for gay fathers in Italy yet. Things in general are legally much more concerning for anyone living in Italy who has gone abroad for surrogacy. Meloni's government actually passed one of the most restrictive laws against surrogacy in the West late last year. The law introduced jail terms of up to two years and fines of up to 1 million euros for people who go abroad to have a baby with a surrogate mother.
It's obviously not only gay men who go down the surrogacy route, but the law was seen as an attempt to target gay men and further limit their possibilities when it comes to parenting.
That said, there was a glimmer of hope for gay fathers in Italy last week, which I also wanted to share. There was a ruling in Pesaro on the same day, actually, as this constitutional court ruling. And in this ruling, two fathers were allowed by the court in Pesaro to adopt their child who had been made with the help of a surrogate in the US. The child was actually born before Meloni's restrictive anti-surrogacy law came in last year.
So that is a big win for that family, but things are still prohibitively restrictive for gay men who want to have kids in Italy. And yeah, I saw lots of stories in the media whilst researching this Good Week of rainbow families deciding to leave Italy since Meloni came into power because her government is just attacking these rainbow families pretty relentlessly.
KATY LEE:
That's so grim. And even for that family that won, you know, the right to adopt, as we said, it’s, like, a whole load of bureaucracy. And it shouldn't be that you have to call them an adopted kid, you know, even if it's just on paper.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I agree. The thing that always winds me up about these anti-rainbow family laws is that the legislation diminishing the rights of these queer parents is so clearly not in the interests of the child. And I was really pleased to see that the constitutional court, at least in part, was ruling with the rights of the child at the centre of its ruling.
And yeah, I'm a bit focused on children's rights at the moment because I'm actually currently playing a very bad father in a piece of opera about children's rights.
KATY LEE:
I was going to say, this is quite related to what you're doing in your other job at the moment.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Exactly, yeah. For people that don't know, I'm also an opera singer and we're actually playing in Amsterdam next week. So if you speak Dutch and want to see a cabaret opera about children's rights, then come to Oude Pardon.
KATY LEE:
Plug.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
But I actually wanted to ask you, Katy, did you know that there are 54 rights that a child is entitled to according to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child?
KATY LEE:
I did not know that. Are you going to tell me all 54 of them?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
No, I'm not. But I thought it was important to mention it and to say that this convention, it was adopted in 1989 and it includes things like the right to a name, to a nationality, the right to play, the right to receive care, the right to be safe from violence and the right to education. It really covers a lot and 196 countries have signed onto these rights, including all of the European Union countries.
And this UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is actually referred to in the sentence from the Constitutional Court, along with some other European treaties protecting children's rights, even though the ruling is mainly based on the Italian national constitutional principles. And, little sidebar, but actually in this convention, governments have a right to make their citizens aware of these rights of the child, which I think most governments, at least in Europe, are failing at. So everyone go out there and buy your copy of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. It's riveting reading.
KATY LEE:
Is it available at all good bookshops?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
[Laughs.] Yes, I think it is. Anyway, I should probably say that, I mean, it's still not great to be living in Italy as a rainbow family right now, but it's a little bit less awful than it was last week, thanks to this ruling. And therefore, Good Week goes to lesbian mothers in Italy.
KATY LEE:
You know what? In this day and age, any glimmer of hope is something I'm very happy to cling on to.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Me too.
KATY LEE:
Good week!
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Who's had a bad week?
KATY LEE:
Well, it's only been a month since we last gave the Hungarian government bad week over its pride ban. And I am sorry to tell you that I am back again to give Hungary bad week. On the bright side, there are extremely tentative signs of a fight back from the EU against Viktor Orbán's latest wrongdoings, which I'm going to talk about a little bit later in this segment, which is brought to you in collaboration with our radio friends from across Europe at Euranet Plus.
But yeah, you might have heard about this planned new law in Hungary over the past couple of weeks. Although, frankly, I still don't think the story is getting the attention it deserves, given how disturbing it is. But back on May the 13th, Hungary's government announced plans for a new law called the Transparency in Public Life Bill. Which sounds nice, right? Who doesn't like transparency in public life?
Very quickly, though, when people started taking a look at what was actually in this law, it became very clear that it is nothing short of an attempt to wipe out any remaining criticism of Viktor Orbán and his government in Hungary, coming from independent groups like human rights organizations, think tanks, and the few remaining independent media outlets who are continuing to work out of Hungary in incredibly difficult circumstances.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I've heard other people referring to this law maybe more accurately as the “starve and strangle” law. It's a good description. But could you tell us a bit about how it actually works, this law?
KATY LEE:
So what it does is it hands more power to this very sketchy Hungarian government body called the Sovereignty Protection Office that was created about a year and a half ago. And under the new law, any group or organization that receives even a tiny bit of money, like literally a handful of euros, from outside of Hungary, can potentially go on a list, a kind of watch list of organizations that have been flagged as foreign funded and having the potential to interfere in Hungarian public life. And once you're on that list, you won't be able to receive any money from abroad unless the government says you can.
They're also going to make it really difficult for you to receive donations from people within Hungary, too. So effectively, as an organization, if you're on that blacklist, you're cooked. You know, like, the government will just make it incredibly difficult to get any more funding and continue operating.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
OK, but you said that groups can only end up in this list if they're seen as interfering in public life, right? How are the government defining that?
KATY LEE:
Basically as anything they don't like. It's an extremely broad definition. And that's one of the terrifying things about it.
Under this new law, interfering in public life could include anything from undermining those family values that you talked about earlier—and, you know, speaking in the Hungarian government's language, as well as Italy's one, that would be in any group that fights for LGBTQ rights. It would also include undermining Hungary's Christian culture and indeed criticizing Hungary's stance on the rule of law. So yeah, if you in any way criticize the state of Hungarian democracy, or the lack of it, that can also be seen as interfering in public life.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
The irony of that! It really sounds like that in itself is the problem.
KATY LEE:
Right?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
With the rule of law. I shouldn't be laughing.
KATY LEE:
Yeah, it's quite a warning sign that something's gone very wrong in your democracy if you're trying to prevent that sort of thing. But yeah, I mean, even for those of us who've watched Viktor Orbán chip-chip-chipping away at Hungarian democracy for the past decade and a bit, this move is really one of the most breathtaking there has been ever in the whole of that process of Hungary sliding into autocracy. As we've talked about previously, there are elections due in Hungary next year, and at last, there seems to be a serious challenger to Orbán, this former regime insider called Péter Magyar.
We don't know for a fact that the elections are why Orbán is doing this, but it does look from the outside like there is a pretty clear push from inside his Fidesz party at the moment to make criticism as hard as possible. ahead of those elections. So yeah, this law feels really big and drastic and scary, and Hungarian citizens have recognized it instantly as big and drastic and scary.
Tens of thousands of people turned out onto the streets of Budapest to protest against it weekend before last, and one of the most striking sights of that protest was this huge European flag that just said, “Help.”
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Oh, it's really chilling. And I guess part of the reason why it feels so scary is because it feels kind of similar to a law that was passed in Russia a while back, right?
KATY LEE:
Yeah, exactly. So this law has been described as a very close copy of a law that got passed in Russia in 2022. That law was seen as one of the final nails in the coffin for Russian democracy. Not that democracy really existed in Russia by that point anyway. But it basically made any civic activism critical of the government impossible in Russia by labeling independent groups as “foreign agents.” And of course, Hungary's government is not the first to look at what Russia did with that law and think, “Oh, that looks like a good idea. I'll have some of that.”
Georgia adopted a similar law last year. And again, this is one of the milestones on that country sliding towards Russia-style authoritarianism, along with the deeply unfair elections held in October. And even within the EU, Hungary's is not the only government to try this.
Slovakia also has a new law targeting civil society that is going to come into effect next month. And the original bill actually started out looking pretty similar to this. The final version of the law has been watered down a bit. It doesn't use this language of describing NGOs as foreign agents anymore. But it does still put a lot of pressure on civil society groups to reveal where their funding comes from. And a lot of Slovak activists are worried that this is a stepping stone to something scarier.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So the thing that that Russian bill and this Hungarian bill have in common is that they target groups that get any funding from abroad. And presumably, a lot of these groups that the government don't like do get at least some of their funding from abroad.
KATY LEE:
Yeah. So for many years now, as governments like Russia's and Georgia's and Hungary and Slovakia, as those governments have become more and more hostile to criticism and activism of any kind, the groups that do that work have obviously had to look internationally for money to keep them going. And, you know, philanthropic funding that supports stuff like a free press, minority rights—anything that makes a democracy feel noisier and healthier, that money has typically had to come from the countries that promote those values loudly.
So that includes, notably, the US, up until very recently, and also the EU. And by the way, EU funding under this law is going to be considered foreign funding. So if you are, for example, a small theater group in Budapest that gets even a little bit of EU money to support your work, you are now going to be potentially cut off from that funding and all of your other funding coming from both at home and abroad if the Sovereignty Protection Office decides that your work is critical of the government or like dangerous in some way.
But yeah, because Orbán and his Fidesz party have made life so hard for anyone critical in recent years, there are a lot of groups like this getting funding from abroad to support their work, whether it is independent media outlets, LGBTQ rights groups, or indeed people doing arts and culture stuff like theater. The thing about this is that even though this is work that makes Hungary's democracy richer and healthier, it's pretty easy for Orbán to paint it as foreign interference, right? So politicians from Fidesz have pointed to the millions of euros and dollars that have been sent through grants from the European Commission and national European governments and through USAID in recent years, and they are painting this as foreign money that is being used to criticize the government and therefore to intervene in domestic politics.
Which is not entirely wrong, right? There is a grain of truth to it. It's just that for those of us who have liberal values, this is kind of good meddling because it helps to keep the few remaining shreds of Hungarian democracy alive. But it's quite clever, cynical timing on the part of Hungary's government because of the context. There has been a lot of concern in Europe about foreign interference in domestic politics lately. Just look at the Russian attempts to influence Romania's elections. Just look at Elon Musk expressing support for the far right in Germany.
So the Hungarian government can say, “Look, all we're doing is protecting ourselves from foreign interference. We thought you were all in agreement that that's a good thing.” But of course, that's not what this is. It's very obvious what this is.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, as you said, this sounds like one of the most disturbing things that Orbán has done since he came into power a long time ago. The EU obviously doesn't have the best record in stopping Orbán from doing these anti-democratic things. But surely there must be a lot of pressure on the EU to actually do something now.
KATY LEE:
Loads of pressure, yeah. And it is coming from Hungarian civil society itself, of course. It's also coming from elsewhere in Europe. For example, more than 18 newspapers and media organizations from across the continent have written a letter protesting against the law, saying it will basically wipe out whatever free speech is left in Hungary. And the pressure does seem to be pushing the EU into at least words for now, if not action. So that is why I'm giving Orbán's government my Bad Week.
The European Commission does seem to have taken a couple of weeks to think about how to respond to this. But over the weekend, it came out and demanded that Hungary withdraw this law. And a spokesperson for the Commission told Euronews, “We will not hesitate to take the necessary action if this draft is adopted.”
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
OK, well, necessary action, what does that actually mean?
KATY LEE:
That is a very good question. So let's take a look at what weapons the European Union actually has at its disposal to try to stop Hungary from doing this. First of all, can they actually get Hungary to drop this law? I mean, legal experts have taken one look at this draft bill and pointed out a variety of ways in which it is very clearly in violation of EU law. And if you are in an EU member country, you're just not allowed to have national laws that break EU ones.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
How is it in violation? Like, what exactly is it violating?
KATY LEE:
Loads of things. So it violates basic principles of the EU that are in our treaties, like the right to free association and the right to free expression. It apparently breaks GDPR, the data law. It also breaks the principle of being able to move funds freely across the EU because it's potentially going to stop Hungarian groups from receiving money from other EU countries. So it's clearly in breach.
The European Commission, which is the closest thing the EU has to a government, it doesn't have the power to just force Hungary to drop this law. What it can do is take Hungary to the EU's court, the Court of Justice. And if you're looking for some positivity in all of this, there is actually an example of this working successfully in the past. The Hungarian government actually already tried to pass a similar law to this back in 2017. It did pass that law, in fact. But the law was found to be incompatible with EU law. And the Hungarian parliament ended up having to repeal it in 2021. So that's kind of promising.
Has it stopped the Orbán government from misbehaving in the years since then? No, no, it hasn't. What a lot of civil society groups are calling on the European Commission to do that they think would be more effective is to fast track a case that is already going through the Court of Justice against Hungary, which is this case against the 2023 law that created that sketchy body I mentioned, the Sovereignty Protection Office in the first place. That's the body that's going to be creating this blacklist of NGOs and media organizations.
So the European Commission could go to the court and say, “Look, you're already looking at this case. This situation is developing really quickly. You need to act faster on the existing court case and pass some kind of interim measures to protect Hungarian civil society, whatever those measures may be.”
Having said that, you know, I said there was a track record of successful use of the courts against Hungary. There are also plenty of court rulings that the Orbán government have just ignored over the years. And it's worth noting that the way that Orbán talks about the courts has been shifting. He's increasingly been talking about something he describes as judicial activism, which is basically like rebelling against a court decision if you think it's wrong.
So while I do think the EU does need to go ahead and pursue this legally, I'm a little skeptical about whether it will actually manage to get the Hungarian government to reverse this law, which they're planning to pass by mid-June, by the way. So even if there is going to be legal action, it's probably going to be slow. Like, way too slow to prevent this bill from actually becoming law.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Okay, so that's the courts. But is there anything else at the EU's disposal that they can do to try and stop Hungary?
KATY LEE:
Yeah, so other than trying to use the courts, you will probably not be surprised to hear that the other strategy that people are talking about is cutting off Hungary's EU money. Hungary is one of the biggest recipients, the biggest net recipients of EU funds. And the Hungarian economy is also doing terribly at the moment.
So that's the big question, right? Can we force Orbán to behave by threatening to take his money away at a time when he really needs it? And again, there is a track record of doing this. About 18 billion euros of EU funding that is supposed to go to Hungary is currently frozen because of anti-democratic behavior by Orbán's government.
Again, it doesn't seem to have stopped his government from doing stuff like trying to pass this law, for example. And that is why some within Brussels are calling for more drastic action this time. So last week, 26 members of the European Parliament wrote to the European Commission and called on them to cut off all funding for Hungary. All of it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Wow, has that ever been done? Can that be done? I don't think it's ever been done, has it?
KATY LEE:
No, it hasn't. In theory, it can be done, though. There is this thing called the rule of law conditionality mechanism. Catchy. That's the thing that's previously been used to freeze some of Hungary's funding. And according to all of the clever legal theorists that I've been reading on the internet, you could, in theory, use that mechanism to cut off Hungary's funding completely.
And, you know, on one level, it really sucks because that would have a very real impact on ordinary Hungarians who have got nothing to do with their government. But arguably, that's the only thing that's going to work here. Like, we have seen that slicing away bits of Orbán's funding doesn't necessarily have the desired effect. And if we're talking about one of the most extreme things that Orbán has done yet, doesn't that call for the most extreme response yet?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
One of the things we've talked about on this show before is the fact that, at least on many decisions, Hungary has veto power. And he's used that to kind of blackmail the EU into not cutting off his funding stream. Isn't that just what's going to happen again this time?
KATY LEE:
Potentially, yes. So, yeah, just a quick recap. At the start of last year, Orbán did manage to get some of his funding unblocked after basically holding the rest of the EU hostage over its plans to send aid to Ukraine.
The EU wanted to send 50 billion euros to Ukraine. And Orbán spied an opportunity to get some of his cash back by saying, I can stand in the way of this. You know, Hungary might be a small country, but you guys need unanimity on this deal, or it isn't getting passed.
And it worked. He managed to get about 10 billion unfrozen, even if quite a lot more of it remains frozen. Which is why there is still this ongoing conversation about unanimity, righ? In general, this is a feature of, like, the way that the EU is set up that makes it slower for the EU to act on the world stage. And in the specific case of authoritarian leaders within the EU, like Orbán and Robert Fico in Slovakia, it gives them massive leverage and it helps them to get away with this kind of anti-democratic bullshit.
Is anything going to change on that front? Well, we are recording this just before lunch on Tuesday and as we speak, ministers from all the national governments within the EU are meeting in Brussels, and they're discussing this option of potentially taking away Hungary's voting rights.
Again, they've discussed this like eight times since 2018 and it's never happened. And I'm sorry to tell you that in this case, it looks very unlikely to happen again. Ironically, because of the whole unanimity thing. In order for one country's voting rights to be suspended, all of the other national governments need to unanimously agree on it. And in this case, Orbán's pal, Robert Fico of Slovakia, has made it very clear that he would block any attempt to punish Hungary.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, do you have any hope?
KATY LEE:
I mean, I think something will happen in the courts, probably too slowly. Taking away Hungary's voting rights, and therefore Orbán's bargaining power, that seems like a very slim possibility right now. As for the push to take away all of Hungary's EU funding, while I think that a threat to do that is absolutely justified by the extremity of this law, I'm sorry to say it, but I just don't know how much appetite there is for radical action like that within the European Commission and the EU more broadly.
I mentioned the forthcoming ban on Pride that you talked about, Dominic, a few weeks ago, in Hungary. That has caused a huge amount of protest and criticism. It is horrific that a government within the EU could get away with that level of homophobia.
And you mentioned that a lot of LGBTQ Italians have literally left the country and moved elsewhere because the environment is so hostile. It's interesting because the same is happening in Hungary. And it's happening increasingly because the community just feels like nothing is happening to stop Orbán's regime from persecuting them. No one is coming to help.
I just want to play you a little snippet of an interview that our friends at Latvian Public Radio aired last week with Luca Dudits, who is a Hungarian LGBTQ rights campaigner.
LUCA DUDITS (CLIP):
There is obviously a lot of pressure on the Hungarian LGBTQ community. A lot of people feel very much abandoned and left alone and hopeless by the situation, especially if they are part of the trans community. And a lot of people are leaving the country because they feel like it's hopeless for them to live in peace, because if you use public transport, for example, as an LGBTQI person, there is a real chance that you might be discriminated against or harassed.
KATY LEE:
But despite a majority of EU countries backing a statement saying they want the EU to do something to force Orbán to reverse it, Politico has been reporting in recent days that plans for the European Commission to take action against the pride ban have stalled because there just isn't enough support from the top ranks of the Commission.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That's depressing. By the way, just a sidebar on that. There was news in the Netherlands last week that the Dutch Parliament voted for a delegation of cabinet ministers to attend the banned Pride March in Budapest.
KATY LEE:
Which is great, but apparently, well, according to Politico at least, ministers from national governments have been encouraged not to attend because it's seen as provocative at a time when, apparently, the Commission seems to think that a softly, softly approach with Orbán might be better now, that he shouldn't be provoked.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, yeah, I think that's also how the Dutch government actually responded to Parliament's request, but it's still to be seen whether it happens. Oh, grim.
KATY LEE:
It is, and you know, from where I'm sitting, it's really hard to see the argument for this softly, softly approach. It's really frustrating. I would like to see action, and I would also like to see consistent action. You know, if the Commission is potentially going to act on this crackdown on NGOs and the independent media, that's great, but why not also the pride ban? And while we're at it, if we're talking about consistency, if the EU is going to talk like it's a beacon of human rights in the world, it should also be applying that consistently inside and outside the EU itself. You know, for example, just to give one massive glaring example, when it comes to its dithering over how to approach Israel and Gaza.
But yeah, where Hungary is concerned, at least the tools are there. There are tools at the EU's disposal. I really hope they get used. Otherwise, this is just another moment of, are we really going to let Viktor Orbán get away with this? And this time, I feel like if we do, we are going to end up with a country that really, really looks nothing at all like a democracy sitting within the European Union and potentially vetoing loads of our decisions or threatening to.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
When is the election meant to take place next year?
KATY LEE:
Spring, I believe.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Okay. Will democracy survive another year of Orbán?
KATY LEE:
Yeah, I mean, it's sometimes hard to feel hopeful. And if you are feeling a little bit helpless and hopeless after that miserable bad week that I just told you about, please write your MEP, make your voice heard, tell them that this is something that you care about.
And you can also do something with your wallet. In the show notes, you'll find some links for some Hungarian civil society groups and independent media doing great and important work. The window is not yet closed. This bill will not be passed before mid-June, it's looking like. So if you've got any spare cash, please, please do send it in the direction of these amazing and brave activists in Hungary while they can still actually receive it.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
It's time for us to talk business. This is an entirely free podcast. We don't have a paywall, but that's only because some of you have decided to reach into your pockets and throw us a bit of money each month.
KATY LEE:
Yay!
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yay, indeed. I really want to keep making this podcast and it is only possible because of that support we receive. So thank you this week to some amazing listeners who signed up most recently. They are Nora and Marcia.
KATY LEE:
If you have any spare cash and you appreciate what we do, we would love it if you can do what Nora and Marcia did this week and head to patreon.com/europeanspodcast and send a little bit of cash our way towards our production costs. If you're short on cash, there is also something massive you can do to support us, which is to spread the word about this podcast and help us to grow our audience. So I was thinking: if you're listening to this on the bus or the train right now, why don't you go ahead and tap the shoulder of the person next to you and show them your phone? Show them what you're listening to. Do you think that's a good idea?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
No.
KATY LEE:
It won't look at all creepy.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
You could also just, like, send a message to someone who you think might like this podcast. There might be a more effective way of doing it, Katy.
KATY LEE:
A little bit more targeted. But then you don't get to make a new friend on the bus.
DOMINIC KRAMER:
That's true. If you do that, then let us know how it works out for you. And Katy is not responsible for anything that happens from trying to speak to strangers.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Now I caught you, Katy, describing this show last week as a show about politics in Europe.
KATY LEE:
Yeah, which you corrected me on.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, because it is much more than that. And this week, we have an interview that I think we all need. A bit of respite from all the messy politics of this continent.
And instead, we are heading to Central Europe to talk about a most beloved vegetable. Now, if you're living in Germany, you will almost certainly be aware what time it is. It's Spargelzeit or asparagus time.
We are in the midst of the madness that is European asparagus season. In the German culinary calendar, Spargelzeit runs roughly from mid-April until late June. And I personally always love it when this white asparagus starts turning up in my local supermarket in Amsterdam. Are you also an asparagus fan, Katy?
KATY LEE:
No, I have to confess I don't really partake. I mean, it's kind of like here in France, we eat it, but it's not a craze. So you like properly go for it every year, do you?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I mean, it's really noticeable in April when it suddenly turns up in the supermarket shelf and everyone's talking about it. And it's like, oh, have you eaten asparagus yet? And yeah, I like that. It kind of is one of the few fruits and vegetables that is really treated seasonally here in the Netherlands. Otherwise, like most things, it's just, like, flown in from all across the world. Whereas they're quite serious about asparagus. I love it apart from the side effect of what it does to the smell of your pee, of course. But I won't talk about that anymore.
Anyway, so I am thrilled that we are being joined by a gastronome, a lover of Spargel and a wonderful German food writer, Ursula Heinzelmann. She took the time to speak to me a few days ago. Katy was unfortunately unavailable. And she joined me to try and help me understand why Germans are so in love with this vegetable that they refer to as white gold and how best to consume the vegetable in an ethical way.
KATY LEE:
Great. I'm really looking forward to this.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Ursula, hello. Thank you so much for joining us and happy Spargelzeit. I wanted to start by asking, is Spargelzeit a special part of the year for you?
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
It is very special. First of all, hello, and thank you for inviting me. Yes, Spargelzeit is very special for me. I think a bit still for all Germans, because we think of asparagus, Spargel as white stuff. But I know there are other people in Europe who prefer green stuff, and that's fine.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, although I have to say here in the Netherlands where I live, soon after meeting my husband, I came home one day from the supermarket with some green asparagus. And he, I've never had such a look of disdain. He was really like, that is, that is not asparagus. Growing up in the UK, I'd never seen the white stuff.
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
I know, especially English people are not into white stuff at all.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
What's the main difference between the white and the green stuff?
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
In the kitchen, the white stuff, you have to peel. The green stuff, you don't. You just break off the hard ends. This is due to the fact that the green stuff just grows out of the earth and chlorophyll forms, and it's all edible. The white stuff grows covered with earth. So you have to, you actually cut it from underneath the earth, a bit like rhubarb in the UK. The first rhubarb is grown in the dark. The skin develops very differently. Let's put it like that.
And originally they did that because asparagus is a very, very old plant. Plinius in ancient Greece has been writing about it extensively. They grew it. And then somehow it made it through the Middle Ages, the knowledge about it. I think the French royalty, the French kings ate asparagus in the 15th century. And in the 16th, it made it to Germany. And so originally you put the earth to protect it from frost.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Aha, okay. And so it's been grown in Germany for a long time now. But could you try and describe to me why there's such a reverence for this one particular vegetable in Germany? Why are you all so enthusiastic about it?
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
Good question. I think partly is because, as you noticed, I mentioned the French kings. It's quite a labour-intense vegetable to grow. Also to cut it is a lot of work and back-breaking work. It's something that is not cheap, the white stuff. So it's always been special. It's something that I, as a kid, my mother would serve for Sunday lunch. And it has a very clearly defined season. You have to make good use of that season. You only cut your white asparagus until June 24th, Johannistag.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Okay, so we've got another few weeks now. And from what I understand, much of the asparagus eaten in Europe is actually grown in pretty-far away places like Mexico and Peru.
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
I disagree strongly. The asparagus you can buy now year-round, for a German of my generation, I'm 62 years old, is a bit of an abomination to eat asparagus out of season. Why would you do that? It's one of the pleasures, that there's a limit.
And for that, you're right. It's grown mostly in Peru. But for the asparagus during the season, we have the Greek and the Spanish who jumped in and to go for this very early window. Because people here now expect to eat asparagus for Easter. And if the weather doesn't cooperate, there is no local asparagus for Easter. You know, it depends on also how late or early Easter falls, but still.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
But so even when it is grown in Europe, it's harvested often by seasonal workers. And you mentioned already that it's backbreaking work, and they often earn pretty paltry wages.
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
Well, the wages depend on because they usually are a combination of a fixed wage and one that is tied to how much you actually harvest.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Okay.
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
And very good workers can harvest from 200 to I think the record is at 500 kilograms per day.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Wow.
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
I mean, you and I can't do that.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
No, I'm sure.
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
And most asparagus farmers say that they either they haven't seen a German worker for years, or, yeah, remember, there was the one the Arbeitsamt job office sent, and he didn't even make it through the day. So it's safe to say there are barely any German people harvesting asparagus. It's mostly Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, probably Croatian. Yeah, but it is hard.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah. I mean, and do you think we should take that into account, the fact that these people are doing really physically demanding work in order to harvest this white gold?
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
Yeah, of course.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So what's the best way that listeners can consume asparagus ethically?
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
Ethically, oh my god, I mean, pay the right price, you know, be prepared to pay a certain price. And then go for the freshest. So the more freshly picked it is, but also the sooner, the quicker it is cooled. And I think quite important, try to find organic asparagus, organic agarum, because asparagus is 90% if not more water.
So you want a producer who doesn't add too much water, because you can get that from your own tap, and who where not too much else is added. It really makes a difference.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So you aren't just a writer, you're also trained as a professional chef and ran a Michelin-starred restaurant. So I wanted to ask you before we let you go, what's your favourite way to eat your Spargel?
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
Thank you for that question, Dominic. So when the season starts, I like it as au naturel as possible. When you prepare asparagus, first, be careful when peeling it, peel it well, because the worst thing is you have little strings of, you know, peel still, it's sticking in your teeth. And no, peel it well. It takes a moment to get some practice, but then it's really easy.
Try to peel it yourself. There's pre-peeled stuff, but you lose water again. You know, you want it as juicy and knacky as possible. And then most people boil it in a lot of water. You can do that, but salt your water. Forget about, people say, add sugar or you can add a bit of butter.
But the most important thing is salt in your water. If not, your asparagus will just taste watery. And then the next most important thing is don't overcook it. That's the most horrible thing you can do to asparagus is if you have this limp, mushy stuff. If you lift an asparagus on your finger or on a wooden spoon or something, it should just start wanting to bend. But it's just, it's an idea of wanting to bend. That's it. That's enough.
You can also steam it. There are those special cooking pots where they stand upright in a little basket. And you add just very little water at the bottom. That's also very cool because of course then the kind of aroma stays in the asparagus.
What I do nowadays when I'm on my own, and I don't have a lot of it, I use a flat frying pan so that all the asparagus is in one layer. And I add some butter. Butter and asparagus are perfect partners. And a little bit of water and salt. And then I cook that. So it's kind of almost glazed. And that's it. And I eat it with my fingers.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
With nothing else?
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
This first asparagus with nothing else. Then if I've had my fill, you know, like a week or two in. And I can be seen the first week when I'm at home, like I could eat asparagus every single night. It's just for me, it's so good. Then of course you can, the classic would be to serve some sauce hollandaise with it. Whipped egg yolk with a lot of butter.
I personally, I prefer to, what is very nice is a cream sauce with fresh tarragon. Perhaps a bit of poached salmon or another fish. Classic of course is ham. In the south of Germany, they serve scrambled egg with it. So there's a lot of possibility.
Sometime into the season, I'm not against some green asparagus, I have to say. If it's not too thick, I prefer it quite thin. And I serve it with olive oil and shaved parmigiano reggiano and a bit of rucola. And then a sauvignon blanc with it.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Wow.
URSULA HEINZELMANN:
Fantastic.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I'm salivating right now.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Oh, isn't Ursula totally delightful? I kind of want to go on a culinary holiday with her.
KATY LEE:
Can we do that?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, we can ask her. Anyway, if you want more of Ursula, check out her book, Beyond Bratwurst, A History of Food in Germany.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Time to head into the Inspiration Station. What have you been enjoying this past week, Katy? What European cultural goodies do you want to share with us?
KATY LEE:
Yeah, I've got a tiny desk concert to recommend for you this week. Rita Payés, do you know her?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
No, I don't.
KATY LEE:
She is a Catalan jazz kind of bossa nova singer and trombonist. And this tiny desk concert that she did about six months ago for NPR, it is just balm for the soul. It is so smooth.
And it is her joined by this quite large band, including a drummer who seems to be having the best time. He's like so joyfully distracting in the back of the video because he's just like so happy to be there. It's really lovely to watch.
Her guitarist is also amazing. And there's this woman called Elisabeth Roma, who also just happens to be Rita's mum. And yeah, it's just a lovely performance. She's an amazing singer and trombonist. Also, we were talking last week about how nice it is to be able to read the subtitles on Eurovision when the songs are in a language that you don't speak. And I'm pleased to tell you that this video is subtitled. So you can not only enjoy the sweet sounds of this very talented jazz singer and her band, but also understand the lyrics too, which are very beautiful. So there you go.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That's great.
KATY LEE:
Just some sweet, sweet music for you this week. Rita Baez. It is her Tiny Desk Concert for NPR, which you can watch on YouTube.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Now, that's funny because we didn't coordinate at all. But I've also got a music recommendation for you today that I also discovered via a video of a live performance.
KATY LEE:
Ooh, what have you got?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I was watching a bit of Jules Holland, which is this long running BBC music show. And I came across an artist called CMAT. Have you heard of CMAT?
KATY LEE:
CMAT. I think it's one of those names that I've seen on like, adverts for festivals that always make me feel really old because I don't know who any of the acts are anymore.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Well, I think that's partly because we live in, like, a really fractured music industry where, like, it's not like everyone knows that the Spice Girls are the band at the moment now. Like, you know what I mean?
KATY LEE:
Yes. And just for the record, they are still the band at the moment.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Of course. Anyway, CMAT is the pop name of the Irish singer Ciara Mary-Alice Thompson. C.M.A.T. She's released two albums already. But the reason why I wanted to mention her today is because her new album, which is out at the end of August, is called Euro Country.
KATY LEE:
Nice!
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
I don't think she's just referring to countries that have taken on the euro as their currency. I think the title refers to the fact that she makes music, which is inspired by country music, and she lives in Europe.
KATY LEE:
Oh, fun.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
She's already released two singles from the upcoming album, and I really like them both. The second one, “Take a Sexy Picture of Me,” features a dancing euro coin. So maybe I was wrong, and the title of the album actually is about the single currency. Anyway, it's fun. It's upbeat, catchy, poppy country music that should appeal to fellow European nerds out there like me.
And yeah, I actually did dive into why she's called this album Euro Country. And there's an interview with her in Glamour magazine, in which she said, “I really wanted to spell out the type of music I make. It has confused people, mostly the British press. So I just had to come out and say, I make European country.”
KATY LEE:
I love that as a subgenre. I also love specifically how many subgenres of country there are. I am apparently into a genre that I didn't know was called gay country.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Oh.
KATY LEE:
But that's what I'm into.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Who are the main gay country artists?
KATY LEE:
Big Thief is a big gay country band. Check them out.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Cool. Oh, I will. Yeah, I'm going through my country era. Anyway, CMAT is a talent. Check her out. Oh, and by the way, I started watching that wild romp of a French Napoleonic pastry chef spy show that you discussed on the podcast a week ago, Katy.
KATY LEE:
My guilty pleasure. Do you like it?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
It's definitely a guilty pleasure. It's so over the top. And it's a lot of fun. Thank you for the tip.
KATY LEE:
You're most welcome.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
To round off the show, I always like to leave everyone with a smile, however depressing the rest of the episode has been. Actually, it's not been such a depressing show, the second half of the show anyway.
KATY LEE:
Moderately depressing.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
So it's time for my happy ending. And today I wanted to tell you about a policy I read about from Portugal that cheered me right up. As of this month, Portugal are offering thousands of teenagers a free subscription to a newspaper or a magazine.
Anyone aged 15 to 18 can take up the offer and they can choose from 11 titles. The idea is that this will instill a culture of critical thinking, of reading and kickstart a habit of following high-quality journalism. All these things are vital for the survival of democracy.
KATY LEE:
I love this as a policy. I mean, yes, it costs money, but if you think about it as an investment in like having a generation that aren't just consuming disinformation on TikTok, it feels like money well spent.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Yeah, I agree. I was so pleased to hear that Portugal have found an imaginative and experimental way to try and strengthen our bond as citizens with the news media and protect the future of democracy. So yeah, teenagers can sign up now in Portugal, and if they do, they will enjoy their chosen newspaper or magazine for the next two years without having to dip into their wallet at all.
So well done, Portugal.
KATY LEE:
Do they actually have to get the paper copy or can they get like an online version?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
It's only online versions, I'm afraid.
KATY LEE:
Oh, that's probably for the best because I don't think if you handed a teenager a newspaper, they'd know what it was.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Exactly, yeah.
[MUSIC]
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
That's all we got time for this week, but thank you everyone for listening and thank you to our producers, Morgan Childs and Wojciech Oleksiak for producing this episode.
KATY LEE:
Thank you very much, both of you. Next week, we are taking you to Serbia for a bit of a deep dive, listeners. You've probably heard about the huge protests that have been happening up and down the country over the past six months. But let's be honest, in most European media, Serbia doesn't get a huge amount of coverage. And yet this is a really, really big story. So we wanted to devote an entire episode to diving into it and trying to figure out what it is like to be Serbian right now. Do not miss it. It's a great conversation. And in the meantime, people can find us on social media, can they not?
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
They can. They can find us on YouTube, on Instagram, on Blue Sky and on Mastodon.
KATY LEE:
I'm too lazy to tell you the handles, but you can find them right there on your screen on whatever app you're listening to this on, or just type in The Europeans Podcast on those platforms. You should be able to find us. We will see you next week in Serbia. Bye for now.
DOMINIC KRAEMER:
Ciao.